[PGT] Flames throw up a stinker, lose to the Leafs 6-2.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^ Jonathan Quick

Maybe not to the Flames (given injury history of late & other factors not my first choice), but he fits the blockbuster criteria

But also he has become somewhat of a gamble because of his injury record. Bad idea to overpay in assets and then pay him tens of millions when he gets here.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Corral

But also he has become somewhat of a gamble because of his injury record. Bad idea to overpay in assets and then pay him tens of millions when he gets here.

Agreed, but his acquisition by any team would be considered a blockbuster given his pedigree.

I do have concerns the Flames would chase him though. He checks a lot of their boxes

[TheScorpion]

I wonder if Tyler Toffoli might also be part of a Quick deal.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hasek didn't play much that year. Throwing him in is just lip service.

Niemi, Osgood, Ward, Khabihbulin... not exactly world beaters.

Fleury has stolen some series for the Pens before. He also had an ~ 3 year stretch where he was their absolute worst player come playoff time.

Crawford and Quick... were their teams good because they were good or are they considered good because their teams became good? Both have been labelled "system goalies".

Murray is not great this year and might cost Pittsburgh a playoff spot. Look up his numbers.

Holtby was not especially good in the regular season when he won the Cup. And it remains to be seen if he was just a product of Mitch Korn during his peak years as the year prior to Korn was his worst.

In fact the only goalies in your whole list that would be considered all time greats are Thomas and Brodeur. And Brodeur was wildly considered a system goalie in his time, though I might disagree with that statement.

You need solid goaltending behind solid 200 foot play. Without one or the other you are screwed.

However

Last night the Flames' 200 foot play was more than suspect, but that is not the norm. It was fixable errors.

Against the Wild the Flames' goaltending was more than suspect, but he is not and should not be the starter in the playoffs.

You don't need a Vezina contender to win the cup. Lundqvist, Rask, Price, Bobrovsky, Rinne, Miller, Luongo, Kiprusoff .. that's a whole lot of personal success that proved meaningless in a cap world.

And even if Vasilevskiy wins the Vezina and Cup, it won't be because of him but because his team is an absolute powerhouse that 30 other teams have no answer for.

Sorry, but I don't agree.

Osgood was like Smith, not great but battled. It helped that the Wings were an All Star team.

Ward and Bullin were world beaters. Sorry, but they were.

Niemi, yeah he sucks, but the hawks were dominant, so he just needed to be able to breath and wear the gear.

Fleury was and still is awesome. Sure he didn't win the cup every year, but he's a big reason as to why the Pens were good. Having Sid helps too.

Quick wins games all by himself. He doesn't get enough credit anywhere. I hate the guy because he's a jerk, but he's a great goalie.

Crawford is a Jerk too, don't like him but he was great. Still is, but his body is breaking down.

Holtby is like Fleury. He's great and deserves a lot of credit for last year. But the Caps are not as good this year because Trotz is gone and their structure is gone.

The common ground that all of these guys share though is that you can look at them as "Big Save" goalies. They are all capable and have shown to make saves when the team needs them to. That's what Smith generally hasn't done all year and what Rittich was consistently doing, hence BSD. But recently he's regressing to average and not making the saves that make us all jump to our feet.

Flames need to develop a goalie and right now all we have is Rittich to work with(not a bad thing). The list of examples of teams that can trade for a great goalie is short. And so it should be, why would a team give up on a kid if they think he's got #1 potential. More often than not, the traded goalies that appear to be good become average at best because the team that is trading them see what they are and are willing to move them.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Brutal take.

This illustrates the ongoing challenge that Canadian teams have: the fanbases are far too impatient, and perpetually trumpet change.

Successful teams are patient. Championship teams are not built in a day. And they are not built without challenges along the way.

Look at Nashville. They have been contending for several years now. But they weren't a complete team for most of that time (if ever). No team is perfect. But management stuck with it and remained constant, consistent, and patient. And slowly added, tweaked, and adjusted the team.

That is why they have been good for a long time.

The (second-overall) Flames lose 2 games in a row (for the first time at home in 3 months!), and people start talking about firing the GM.

People talk about the influx of Leaf fans being embarrassing. What I find embarrassing is the bipolar attitude of fans, and the need to jump off a ledge the moment there is even the slightest bit of adversity.

Not patient enough, yeah that’s it. Get off your high horse and spare me the sanctimonious BS. It’s been 6 seasons since Kipper retired and we are no more closer today to finding someone to be our everyday starting goaltender than we were back then. We failed to get a goaltender through FA, we failed trading for a goaltender, and we’ve failed developing one on our despite having some pretty highly regarded prospects. This is a very big problem to have and BT’s duct tape fixes are not working.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

As I said in the game thread, enough is enough with the goaltending. Everyone knew it was an issue, Treliving has messed this up for years, and If this brings us down in the playoffs he needs to be shown the door.

Treliving is likely going to win GM of the year. Probably not going to be fired, I'd say.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Treliving is likely going to win GM of the year. Probably not going to be fired, I'd say.

Treliving will not win GM of the year. I’m not saying he should be fired, I’m saying fixing this goaltender this summer should be his last chance and ownership should be putting him on notice.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Treliving will not win GM of the year. I’m not saying he should be fired, I’m saying fixing this goaltender this summer should be his last chance and ownership should be putting him on notice.

I see. When you said if the goalies let the team down in the POs he should be "shown the door" you were not saying "fired".

Oh, and...

Brad Treliving topped the voters’ list for the GM of the Year Award with San Jose’s Doug Wilson and New York Islanders braintrust Lou Lamoriello coming in at second and third respectively.
https://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey...hl-awards-list

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I see. When you said if the goalies let the team down in the POs he should be "shown the door" you were not saying "fired".

Oh, and...

Brad Treliving topped the voters’ list for the GM of the Year Award with San Jose’s Doug Wilson and New York Islanders braintrust Lou Lamoriello coming in at second and third respectively.
https://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey...hl-awards-list

Yes, If the Flames lose the first round based on goaltending he should be fired. It hasn’t happened yet so I’m not advocating for his removal unless that does happen. I damn sure will be if it does though. He’s the one that banked his hopes on a 36 year old goaltender last year and he’s the one that allows this to go undressed all year this year. This team has one glaring weakness and we all know what it is.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Yes, If the Flames lose the first round based on goaltending he should be fired. It hasn’t happened yet so I’m not advocating for his removal unless that does happen. I damn sure will be if it does though. He’s the one that banked his hopes on a 36 year old goaltender last year and he’s the one that allows this to go undressed all year this year. This team has one glaring weakness and we all know what it is.

The Flames are first in the West and you want to fire the GM if they lose a playoff round? Good Grief...

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

The Flames are first in the West and you want to fire the GM if they lose a playoff round? Good Grief...

Heck, the same thing happens in the Other Sports forum with some fans calling for Dave Dickinson's scalp (and that's a guy who guided the Stamps to three straight Grey Cup games and just won a championship).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Not patient enough, yeah that’s it. Get off your high horse and spare me the sanctimonious BS. It’s been 6 seasons since Kipper retired and we are no more closer today to finding someone to be our everyday starting goaltender than we were back then.

Are we? Rittich is a second year NHL goalie who has taken significant strides in each of his three NA professional seasons. Tyler Parsons is a 21-year-old U20 gold medalist who was also named Memorial Cup outstanding goaltender.

I would actually say that the Flames are considerably closer to finding a new starting goalie than they were when Kiprusoff retired.

We failed to get a goaltender through FA, we failed trading for a goaltender, and we’ve failed developing one on our despite having some pretty highly regarded prospects.

I addressed this in a previous post. It is a mistake to evaluate Treliving's work to acquire a goalie in a vacuum. He is building a team—not just a single position. The TEAM he has constructed is the best team in the Western Conference with less than 20 games remaining in the season. While he has not yet resolved the Flames goaltending issues, he has pretty well upgraded everything else. A championship team is not constructed overnight—it sometimes takes more than several years to put all the pieces together. This team has one unfilled hole because fo the fantastic work Treliving has done to fill every other position. It is ridiculous to close the book on this ONE aspect of his tenure now.

This is a very big problem to have and BT’s duct tape fixes are not working.

But why have Treliving's fixes to goaltending thus far been temporary? Is it because he is incompetent? Or rather, is it because he has prioritized the expenditure of assets to address other, more immediately crucial areas of weakness? The Flames spent a lot of assets over the past few years on defense, and more recently on scoring depth. As a result, they are one of the deepest, highest scoring teams with among the best collection of defensemen. The "duct tape fixes" were largely temporary and underwhelming because of the cost of shoring up elsewhere. I would now expect a more concerted effort to addressing the goaltending on this team—now that everything else looks to be in much, MUCH better shape than it was when Treliving arrived.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Yes, If the Flames lose the first round based on goaltending he should be fired. It hasn’t happened yet so I’m not advocating for his removal unless that does happen. I damn sure will be if it does though. He’s the one that banked his hopes on a 36 year old goaltender last year and he’s the one that allows this to go undressed all year this year. This team has one glaring weakness and we all know what it is.

How many weaknesses did the Flames have when Treliving arrived in Calgary five years ago?

During his tenure he is directly responsible for constructing 1/3 of the top six, 2/3 of the entire defense core, and at least half of the bottom-six on any given night.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Not patient enough, yeah that’s it. Get off your high horse and spare me the sanctimonious BS. It’s been 6 seasons since Kipper retired and we are no more closer today to finding someone to be our everyday starting goaltender than we were back then. We failed to get a goaltender through FA, we failed trading for a goaltender, and we’ve failed developing one on our despite having some pretty highly regarded prospects. This is a very big problem to have and BT’s duct tape fixes are not working.

So rather than look at all the good moves that BT has done in putting together a 1st place team, you'd rather look at the one major hole this team still has, focus on that, and suggest this GM be fired.

That's pretty much the definition of being impatient. Especially since finding a true starting goalie is probably the toughest thing for a GM to do.

Hell in the Flames history we have probably had 2 top end starters in 39 years, but yeah let's fire the GM that still managed to put a first place team on the ice because he couldn't find a goalie in his 5 seasons here.

[SuperMatt18]

Oops double post

[Jiri Hrdina]

A GM should never be fired based on season performance alone. The evaluation needs to be far more broad and on a longer time horizon.
Key to me would be to look across the org and ask if the asset base is improving or getting worse. To me, this organization is in its best shape asset-wise in a very long time.
This is not due to BT alone, but he's a big part of it.
He's shown to be able to have a scouting team that makes good picks, including in later rounds. He's shown he is a strong negotiator with RFA contracts. And generally he's been very good in trades
He has had some miss-steps with UFAs.
Overall his pluses far outweigh his negatives.
And no GM is perfect.

Again I'm a huge believer that stability within key management positions is part of what separates good organizations from bad ones. And the bad ones keep it up by swapping out GMs every 5 years. Calgary has done this for literally decades.

I hope this is the end of it. I want BT to be the GM for the next 10 years or more.

[FireGilbert]

To put things in perspective, this is the first time the Flames have lost back to back in regulation since November. The 18-19 Flames are a really good hockey team and this mini slump doesn't worry me at all.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

In the 15 games since the all star break Gaudreau has 11 points, Monahan has 10, and Lindholm has 14. They are certainly capable of much more but to say they’re doing very little isn’t true. They just aren’t producing at the insane pace they were earlier, which was expected.

Tkachuk on the other hand only has 5 points in that same stretch. If there’s one guy they really need to get going, it’s him. The top line needs to be better but I don’t think they’ve been nearly as bad as some people are saying.

And Calgary is still a playoff caliber team with the top line playing a little below a PPG. What puts them into the contender group is when the top line is playing like one of the 2 or 3 best in the league, producing at 1-1.5 PPG apiece. So, no. They haven't been bad at all. But in order to finish atop the conference, it takes a top line Being the top line in the conference, also. That's what sets them apart. So while it's somewhat unreasonable to rip on their body of work over the 15 games, it's reasonable to want them to play up to their previous body of work in order to elevate the team to one among special company as it has been this season.

The way they were going previously, we could win games like last night, in spite of the goaltending or bad breaks. We would break down even the goalies that were feeling it at the other end over the course of the game, usually culminating in a burst of goals in the third period, as opposed to succumbing to a good goaltending performance and writing off the game due to a dialled in goalie. They're getting deterred when things go against them in the past two games, rather than elevating their game and being relentless as they would be against pretty much any opponent before.

The top players need an injection of confidence again. And sometimes that takes the breaks going our way, which they just haven't been lately.

[dino7c]

hopefully the players have gotten over this game faster than the fans


still in the drivers seat for 1st, home ice in round one is a lock...its early March

In september we were dreaming for playoffs