Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[RM14]

Some news!

Jeff Davison

"#PRESSRELEASE: Today, Committee will hear a cost estimate on a new Event Centre, and will review the methodology for an Economic Impact Assessment on two vital components of the new Entertainment and Cultural District: The Event Centre and BMO Centre Expansion. #yyc #yyccc #ECAC"

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...at-550-million

[getbak]

The Event Centre Assessment Committee meeting is underway.

You can view the livestream here: https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....6-6ab25e1e39ac

[Ozy_Flame]

Who is answering questions right now? Looks like two guys selling the idea? Ernst and Young dudes?

[getbak]

It's reps from Ernst & Young who have been hired to create a cost analysis report to look at other cities and their sports/entertainment districts. They presented their plan for the report and are now answering questions from council about that plan.

[RM14]

Listening to this session gives me zero confidence that City Council will be able to agree enough to get an arena deal with the Flames.

Council wastes so much time and are extremely sarcastic when making statements. Often the goal seems to just to make a statement with sass.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by RM14

Listening to this session gives me zero confidence that City Council will be able to agree enough to get an arena deal with the Flames.

Council wastes so much time and are extremely sarcastic when making statements. Often the goal seems to just to make a statement with sass.

You must not listen to Council much - this is a veritable love-in in comparison to discussions on many other initiatives.

[getbak]

Now they're talking cost.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1073711241879801856

[GullFoss]

Here's my bet of what the final product looks like. As someone who was against Calgary next and Olympics, I would back this

Ticket tax: $175m
Flames: $200m, 50% of cost overrun
City: land, infrastructure, $125m, 50% of cost overrun
CLR: $75m

Flames patrons pay 30%
Calgary flames pay largest share 35%
City pays through direct contribution ($100 per citizen)
Businesses pay through CRL

Everyone who benefits is paying a share. Flames end up paying ~2/3 through ownership and ticket tax

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Here's my bet of what the final product looks like. As someone who was against Calgary next and Olympics, I would back this

Ticket tax: $175m
Flames: $200m, 50% of cost overrun
City: land, infrastructure, $125m, 50% of cost overrun
CLR: $75m

Flames patrons pay 30%
Calgary flames pay largest share 35%
City pays through direct contribution ($100 per citizen)
Businesses pay through CRL

Everyone who benefits is paying a share. Flames end up paying ~2/3 through ownership and ticket tax

This seems too reasonable.

[Coach]

Does any part of this negotiation change with Seattle expansion and rumours of Houston eyeing the Coyotes?

I never thought the threat of leaving was real but it certainly was a card passive-aggressively played.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Here's my bet of what the final product looks like. As someone who was against Calgary next and Olympics, I would back this

Ticket tax: $175m
Flames: $200m, 50% of cost overrun
City: land, infrastructure, $125m, 50% of cost overrun
CLR: $75m

Flames patrons pay 30%
Calgary flames pay largest share 35%
City pays through direct contribution ($100 per citizen)
Businesses pay through CRL

Everyone who benefits is paying a share. Flames end up paying ~2/3 through ownership and ticket tax

*And flames pay $2m of property tax per annum, with a 4% escalator each year, which has an NPV of ~$125m over 60 years using a 3.5% discount rate. So the city recoups its investment, and no one gives a #### about $2m per year

[flamesforcup]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Here's my bet of what the final product looks like. As someone who was against Calgary next and Olympics, I would back this

Ticket tax: $175m
Flames: $200m, 50% of cost overrun
City: land, infrastructure, $125m, 50% of cost overrun
CLR: $75m

Flames patrons pay 30%
Calgary flames pay largest share 35%
City pays through direct contribution ($100 per citizen)
Businesses pay through CRL

Everyone who benefits is paying a share. Flames end up paying ~2/3 through ownership and ticket tax

Why should every citizen pay 100$ for a private enterprise? They are just gonna increase prices by a lot and price gouge us while taking our money. I would rather let em move.

[MacDaddy77]

Please copy Nashville. Please copy Nashville!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

*And flames pay $2m of property tax per annum, with a 4% escalator each year, which has an NPV of ~$125m over 60 years using a 3.5% discount rate. So the city recoups its investment, and no one gives a #### about $2m per year

An arena with a 60 year life? A 60 year payback isn’t realistic. Make it $6 million and maybe you can sell to taxpayers that they will see their money back.

But then we’re back to Flames claiming they are paying 100% of costs.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

Please copy Nashville. Please copy Nashville!

You want to copy an arena built 22 years ago in '96? It's nice for sure, but I really hope we have our sights set on something ultra modern and hopefully cutting edge in some manner (maybe the inverted bowl).

[jayswin]

I fear what will come of all this is a very bare bones, bland arena. The city isn't paying a penny more than they have to (rightfully so), and the Flames appetite for something cutting edge/expensive is likely all but gone as those plans were based on the citizens footing a much larger portion of the bill.

My guess is a deal will be struck before the end of the season, we'll wait awhile for renderings and then let out a collective "meh", then it will become even more bland in real life as arenas renderings to completion always do.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You want top copy an arena built 22 years ago in '96? It's nice for sure, but I really hope we have our sights set on something ultra modern and hopefully cutting edge in some manner (maybe the inverted bowl).

This is the inverted bowl, article cites Rosetti design. I think he means the district around the stadium.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

An arena with a 60 year life? A 60 year payback isn’t realistic. Make it $6 million and maybe you can sell to taxpayers that they will see their money back.

But then we’re back to Flames claiming they are paying 100% of costs.

1) Most stadiums you anticipate are going to have a lifespan of about 50 years but in practice many of them have lifespans of 70 years....so a 60y life isn't unreasonable

2) This is politics and finance...the assumptions dont have to make sense. It just has to be sellable story.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Coach

Does any part of this negotiation change with Seattle expansion and rumours of Houston eyeing the Coyotes?

I never thought the threat of leaving was real but it certainly was a card passive-aggressively played.

Melnyk sells to Peladeau and the Sens move to Quebec

Flames owners get their dream of development dollars and move the Flames to Ottawa and build an arena in Lebreton Flats

New ownership group buys Hurricanes and moves them and Dougie back to Calgary which balances out the divisions again.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

1) Most stadiums you anticipate are going to have a lifespan of about 50 years but in practice many of them have lifespans of 70 years....so a 60y life isn't unreasonable

2) This is politics and finance...the assumptions dont have to make sense. It just has to be sellable story.

Hockey arena with 70 year life, as an NHL arena? Other than MSG, which has been totally rebuilt, I can’t think of any. Which ones are you referring to? If you’re thinking about arenas like the original Boston Garden, that’s a different era. And millions upon millions were poured into those old arenas after they were built so the payback calculation doesn’t work.

All we are hearing is that the Saddledome is the oldest NHL arena and needs replacing. It’s 35 years old.