Brad Treliving needs to go

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Yea I just think they had a more aggressive attack off the rush, a higher shooting %, and Johnny/Mony cashed in on a lot of them 'Johnny-to-Mony-in the slot" PP goals as well. They just had their mojo going.

This year I feel like they just suck at shooting accuracy. I see so many players from other teams shelf it on goalies while our guys just shoot in the chest with the odd top shelf goal but it's rare. We lack elite shooters. Monahan and Lindholm are really our only good ones. Mange can sometimes get a beauty off but these guys are just ####ty shooters.

It wasn't just one season though. The three regular seasons combined prior to the Colorado series Johhny Gaudreau ranked 6th in the NHL in even strength point production, and Sean Monahan was 21st. It's clear there was an organizational shift that took place.

Pts/60
2016/2017/2018

Johhny Gaudreau - 2.58pts/60 (6th)
Sean Monahan - 2.27 pts/60 (26th)

2019/2020

Johhny Gaudreau - 1.63pts/60 (163rd)
Sean Monahan - 1.55pts/60 (196th)


These two didn't just drop off over an off-season. It coincides with this organizations shift to make them more accountable and difficult to play against. It hasn't worked.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I for once agree with Nault. I don't care what was reported by media there's no way Treliving re-signed Ward for 2 years to fire him 20 some odd games in without pressure from up top. I think ownership pushed the Sutter hire and I'd imagine Treliving is gone soon as season is over as well. Likely someone Sutter has worked with prior being brought in.

At this point I'm in for that...I don't hate Tre, I don't put all the blame on him, I've liked our drafting, and I like stability in the org but... perhaps a new direction is needed.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I for once agree with Nault. I don't care what was reported by media there's no way Treliving re-signed Ward for 2 years to fire him 20 some odd games in without pressure from up top. I think ownership pushed the Sutter hire and I'd imagine Treliving is gone soon as season is over as well. Likely someone Sutter has worked with prior being brought in.

I don't think this makes much sense. Treliving has two years left on his deal and we're just coming off of a year with zero gate/concession revenues. It's not going to be cheap to fire your GM. Also, if they had planned to fire him and ownership made the decision to hire Sutter (I am sure they were in on the discussion), they why wouldn't they have done it when Sutter was hired and let Conroy or Maloney act as interim GM. If you're going to make a change, why wait?

It was also discussed that the Flames spoke to Sutter in the summer. For one reason or another it didn't happen then. Treliving has also been on record that if he was going to make a change, Sutter was who he wanted. This would also explain the 2-3 week period between the end of year to when they formally announced Ward was coming back as HC.

I think Treliving has this year to right the ship. I would imagine, and Friedman stated this in a recent 31 thoughts, that groundwork has been laid for this upcoming offseason. If someone else comes in, you're staring at ground zero. highly unproductive from an organizational perspective.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I don't think this makes much sense. Treliving has two years left on his deal and we're just coming off of a year with zero gate/concession revenues. It's not going to be cheap to fire your GM. Also, if they had planned to fire him and ownership made the decision to hire Sutter (I am sure they were in on the discussion), they why wouldn't they have done it when Sutter was hired and let Conroy or Maloney act as interim GM. If you're going to make a change, why wait?

It was also discussed that the Flames spoke to Sutter in the summer. For one reason or another it didn't happen then. Treliving has also been on record that if he was going to make a change, Sutter was who he wanted. This would also explain the 2-3 week period between the end of year to when they formally announced Ward was coming back as HC.

I think Treliving has this year to right the ship. I would imagine, and Friedman stated this in a recent 31 thoughts, that groundwork has been laid for this upcoming offseason. If someone else comes in, you're staring at ground zero. highly unproductive from an organizational perspective.

Those are good points, and likely what will happen.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Treliving needs to go.

He assembled this roster with a certain skillset and vision in mind (and found success) and then flip flopped that outlook due to the outcome of the Colorado series and wanted to become more "difficult" to play against. In theory that sounds fine, but the construction of the roster did not allow for this to happen.

Johhny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan have gone from elite even strength point producers over a 3-4 year period to now producing at below average third line results. That is not due to a lack of skill or ability. This is due to these players being pigeonholed into a system they simply don't have the tools and attributes to successfully and productively execute. It's no coincidence that the even strength production of our high end players has dropped off a cliff after Ward took over. He had an extremely similar outlook and vision as Sutter.

This organization has effectively neutered the creativity and productivity of it's best players and drove their respective values down into the ground in the process. This mess is Treliving's burden to carry.

Asking offensive players to be good in their own zone is modern hockey. The days of offense only players is disappearing, and you need your top six (three) to be able to compete five on five with other team's top lines.

Creative players haven't been stifled by coaching, it's their play in their own zone and decisions at turn over points that get altered.

This isn't a coaches/Treliving wrecked Monahan/Gaudreau thing at all. Can't see it.

It's something changed for the players. Could be injuries. Could be nerve. Could be a reliance on tendencies that had the league figure them out. Could be a combination of any or all of those.

I don't see the logic to blame a system or pigeon holing when three different coaches have all had this duo disappear five on five.

They've lost it. Could be many reasons why, but nobody is stifling their in offensive zone creativity.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Luckily Tre saved the owners a lot of real dollars when he traded Neal for Lucic!

Makes replacing him more attractive.

Off he goes.

Also I laugh at placing any value on Treliving being on record saying he wanted to hire Sutter.

Under what circumstance would he possibly say that he wanted to hire someone else? That would’ve been an interesting way to introduce Darryl.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Luckily Tre saved the owners a lot of real dollars when he traded Neal for Lucic!

Makes replacing him more attractive.

Off he goes.

Also I laugh at placing any value on Treliving being on record saying he wanted to hire Sutter.

Under what circumstance would he possibly say that he wanted to hire someone else? That would’ve been an interesting way to introduce Darryl.

why do you believe these things? Why wouldn't you take Treliving at his word? your skepticism seems to reflect more on you and Treliving.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

why do you believe these things? Why wouldn't you take Treliving at his word? your skepticism seems to reflect more on you and Treliving.

Because I’m all grown up and have seen many public figures speak before

Do you not think a guy in a GM role has to have some strategic and political acumen?

Do you really believe that the words Tre selects offer what amounts to a full complete and transparent view in to the situations he discusses? Laughable.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

It wasn't just one season though. The three regular seasons combined prior to the Colorado series Johhny Gaudreau ranked 6th in the NHL in even strength point production, and Sean Monahan was 21st. It's clear there was an organizational shift that took place.

Pts/60
2016/2017/2018

Johhny Gaudreau - 2.58pts/60 (6th)
Sean Monahan - 2.27 pts/60 (26th)

2019/2020

Johhny Gaudreau - 1.63pts/60 (163rd)
Sean Monahan - 1.55pts/60 (196th)


These two didn't just drop off over an off-season. It coincides with this organizations shift to make them more accountable and difficult to play against. It hasn't worked.

I’ve already said it a thousand times, but I’ll continue to say it another thousand times, Monahan and Gaudreau’s struggles aren’t due to anything they’ve done, it’s more about what the opposition is doing to them. I’m sure this duo would’ve been ok doing the same thing they’ve done for years. But because this line is so predictable with their lack of breakout options, mostly due to limitations on their players, then the opposition can easily snuff out this line’s counterattack by dropping back their F2 and F3.

This has actually been a problem for the top line since their inception in 14-15. It just took the league a long time to finally put the strategy in place every game, rather then just in the playoffs. When the game is looser in November and December and everyone is playing run & gun, Monahan and Gaudreau feast. But when the calendar turns to April, they turn back into a pumpkin. I think it’s a big reason why they’ve struggled so mightily at even strength this season, it’s a short season and a lot of teams are playing playoff style hockey and we all know how Monahan and Gaudreau fair in the playoffs.


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[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Because I’m all grown up and have seen many public figures speak before

Do you not think a guy in a GM role has to have some strategic and political acumen?

Do you really believe that the words Tre selects offer what amounts to a full complete and transparent view in to the situations he discusses? Laughable.

I’m sure Treliving, or any other GM, edits what they choose to reveal to the public. That’s not the point.

It seems like what you are suggesting though is that Treliving outright lied. Doesn’t make sense. Do you think the owners said to Treliving, ‘here’s your coach, now go make up a story to sell to the public. Oh, and we’ll see you at work on Monday’. Yeah, right. If this is how things are going, Treliving would have been fired already.

Also, it seems like you’re suggesting Treliving has no spine. He comes from a very wealthy family. Pretty sure he he could comfortably walk away if he was being put into positions he didn’t want to be in.

Maybe Treliving is all grown up as well.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What did Peters do that was so different than Sutter or Ward? The team was elite offensively for 1 year under him but they were certainly not trending that way in year 2.

Peters and Ward had the exact same system. Darryl’s system is completely different. I honestly don’t think Peters’ 50 win season was as impressive as it looks, they caught lightning in a bottle in November-December, won seemingly every game. But after the all star game, the league started to play more playoff style hockey and the same dynamic duo struggled once again, just like the year before. Only this time around, they built up enough of a cushion where their placement in the standings wasn’t badly effected unlike in 17-18 when they were just a bubble playoff team all season long. In the end though, Colorado showed the Flames what they truly are though.

Quite simply put, this roster has been flawed for a loooong time. They rely on a dynamic duo to get them to the playoffs, but once they get there, there’s no back up plan when this line inevitably falters like they always do. Not enough scoring depth, goaltenders not good enough, no real team identity. I mean, what else is new? It’s the same old story.


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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Because I’m all grown up and have seen many public figures speak before

Do you not think a guy in a GM role has to have some strategic and political acumen?

Do you really believe that the words Tre selects offer what amounts to a full complete and transparent view in to the situations he discusses? Laughable.

There's a lot of space in between "full complete and transparent view" and outright lying.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I’m sure Treliving, or any other GM, edits what they choose to reveal to the public. That’s not the point.

It seems like what you are suggesting though is that Treliving outright lied. Doesn’t make sense. Do you think the owners said to Treliving, ‘here’s your coach, now go make up a story to sell to the public. Oh, and we’ll see you at work on Monday’. Yeah, right. If this is how things are going, Treliving would have been fired already.

Also, it seems like you’re suggesting Treliving has no spin. He comes from a very wealthy family. Pretty sure he he could comfortably walk away if he was being put into positions he didn’t want to be in.

Maybe Treliving is all grown up as well.

He has lots of spin, he is generally great at talking to the media and having everyone feel better about things afterwards.

Did the owners fire Feaster? Nope they hired BB instead to oversee him. My guess is that if they aren't happy with BT there are already things being done. I wouldn't assume that because he is still here means that everything is cool.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

There's a lot of space in between "full complete and transparent view" and outright lying.

Who's accusing anyone of outright lying?

Personally, I disagree with posters who paraphrase a GM's public comments as evidence of anything.

Because Treliving said he made the decision to hire Sutter hire doesn't mean the owners weren't highly involved. IMO IF the owners were heavily involved, which I consider very likely, that is not a vote of confidence for your GM.

Has anyone asked him what would have happened had he not not decided to hire Sutter?

[DeluxeMoustache]

*To the TOFan post above

^ I don’t understand what you are taking issue with, friend

It is quite plausible that the owners gave Treliving the ‘opportunity’ or direction to dismiss Ward and hire Sutter. It would not be the first time they intervened with respect to a coach

And if that was the case, no way is Tre going to come out and say he was forced to hire Sutter.

His public comments probably look a heck of a lot the same no matter whether he was forced, given the option to hire Sutter or hit the bricks, or whether it was his own big all grown up idea

Did Tre mention pursuing/ conversing with Darryl during the presser where they made Ward the new full time coach? Nope, he said Ward earned it. Ward was his guy. Until he wasn’t. Then it was Darryl.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

There's a lot of space in between "full complete and transparent view" and outright lying.

I didn’t say he outright lied.

I could suggest, though, that he is probably smart enough to be able to make a politically convenient statement that can’t possibly be proven to be untrue

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

He has lots of spin, he is generally great at talking to the media and having everyone feel better about things afterwards.

Did the owners fire Feaster? Nope they hired BB instead to oversee him. My guess is that if they aren't happy with BT there are already things being done. I wouldn't assume that because he is still here means that everything is cool.

Spine, meant to say spine.

And I would bet not everything is cool with ownership, or Treliving for that matter. I’m sure he’s well aware of the current state of affairs, he’s not oblivious to this.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Spine, meant to say spine.

And I would bet not everything is cool with ownership, or Treliving for that matter. I’m sure he’s well aware of the current state of affairs, he’s not oblivious to this.

Yep I agree, don't think he's lacking in spine at all. And I don't imagine he's happy at all with the state of affairs with the club.

Doesn't seem like a quitter, and he sure seems like both a savvy and decent person. No doubt he regrets a few of his decisions.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Who's accusing anyone of outright lying?

Personally, I disagree with posters who paraphrase a GM's public comments as evidence of anything.

Because Treliving said he made the decision to hire Sutter hire doesn't mean the owners weren't highly involved. IMO IF the owners were heavily involved, which I consider very likely, that is not a vote of confidence for your GM.

Has anyone asked him what would have happened had he not not decided to hire Sutter?

This is pretty close to it in my view:

"Also I laugh at placing any value on Treliving being on record saying he wanted to hire Sutter."

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This is pretty close to it in my view:

"Also I laugh at placing any value on Treliving being on record saying he wanted to hire Sutter."

That really seems very different to me. I place little to no value on any hockey figure's public comments. I'd argue there is a ton of real estate between not placing value and accusations of being a liar. How many times has a GM's vote of confidence in a coach turned into a dismissal weeks later?

But I guess what's the relevance here. Do you feel Treliving had full autonomy in this last coaching decision or was ownership involved? And do you feel that's significant?

I doubt ownership is making the day to day decisions but IMO there is evidence the dynamic has changed and isn't that the point?