The Athletic: The 2020 NHL Poll - Players have their say

[TheIronMaiden]

This is behind a pay wall so I can't copy too much from it, because it is going to be slow for a week, might as well have some discussion about it.

Notably, Tkachuk recieved 11% of the 392 votes for who the 'dirtiest player' in the league was. He was third behind Marchand and Wilson

Also, Giordano was tied for 3rd with 6% of the votes for the best defensive defenceman. Hedman and Weber were ranked ahead of him.



What is more interesting is this bit here.

Do you pay attention to advanced stats?

The advanced stats revolution may be informing decisions off the ice but it has not yet made its way to the players.

“#### no,” said an Atlantic Division player. “I think they’re stupid.”

“I don’t even pay attention to normal stats,” said a Pacific Division player.

“I don’t know enough about it to pay attention,” said another Atlantic player. “It’s more like accounting, I have somebody for that. Leave it up to them.”

From a Pacific Division player who said Yes: “I think they have a place. I don’t think you can look at any one and say, ‘This guy’s a good player or this guy isn’t.’ There has to be context in everything.”

One Atlantic Division player summed up the issue very thoughtfully.

“I think it’s intuitive for us. I know when I’ve been getting shelled on a shift or a whole game,” he said. “We know that – I don’t need someone to tell me that. I’ve been doing this for a long time. … You just know if things are going well or not, whether its shot attempts against or whatever metric is being used.”

All in all another great reason to subscribe to the Athletic. The whole article is pretty insightful and funny.


https://theathletic.com/1536630/2020...dies-and-more/

[SportsJunky]

“I don’t even pay attention to normal stats,” said Mark Jankowski a Pacific Division player.

[GioforPM]

Your average NHLer has pretty limited education, so I'm not sure they really dive into equations like advanced stats. I'm sure their agents know about them and use them in negotiations, though.

[FlamesAddiction]

I personally see advanced stats as secondary to primary stats and find it annoying that so many people focus on advanced stats first.

I cringe when I read things like "expected goals". I can see separating 5 vs 5 from special teams, but even then, powerplays are a part of the game and all goals matter.

Corsi is another one that can be misleading. A team or player that shoots from anywhere as often as possible isn't necessarily going to be more effective than a player or team that is meticulous or opportunist.

Hockey is a lot more simple than fancy stats advocates promote. The fancy stats tell you what may have happened, but in hockey, the eye-test is what really matters.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I personally see advanced stats as secondary to primary stats and find it annoying that so many people focus on advanced stats first.

I cringe when I read things like "expected goals". I can see separating 5 vs 5 from special teams, but even then, powerplays are a part of the game and all goals matter.

Corsi is another one that can be misleading. A team or player that shoots from anywhere as often as possible isn't necessarily going to be more effective than a player or team that is meticulous or opportunist.

Hockey is a lot more simple than fancy stats advocates promote. The fancy stats tell you what may have happened, but in hockey, the eye-test is what really matters.

Its a tool that shows part of the picture, much like most stats that exist.

I agree its meant to be a resource not gospel.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

lol we're doing this again are we?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Your average NHLer has pretty limited education, so I'm not sure they really dive into equations like advanced stats. I'm sure their agents know about them and use them in negotiations, though.

Since they are the ones actually playing the sport, I give them a pass for not caring about it. As mentioned it's something that shows part of picture. But when you are a hockey player in the heat of battle with emotions flowing until the final buzzer, I doubt that player gives 2 ####s about his corsi, p/60 or GRIT index.

[Huntingwhale]

dp

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

lol we're doing this again are we?

If you stand in front of a mirror and say corsi three times...

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Since they are the ones actually playing the sport, I give them a pass for not caring about it. As mentioned it's something that shows part of picture. But when you are a hockey player in the heat of battle with emotions flowing until the final buzzer, I doubt that player gives 2 ####s about his corsi, p/60 or GRIT index.

Yeah, the sense I got from this was that advanced stats are more of a representative tool for GMs or coaches to confirm or confront 'the eye test'. For players, I don't know exactly how they would implement knowledge about their advanced stats into their in game decision making. Players are more worried about adhering to the 'system' or looking for opportunities to take advantage of other teams mistakes. That said, I am sure that coaches can effectively use advanced stats to identify weaknesses in their system.

[Northendzone]

power rankings are the only stat anyone should pay attention to

[Erick Estrada]

Not a good look for Justin St. Pierre with 42% of responses appointing him the worst Referee. Best response;

“I hate picking (St. Pierre) because he’ll probably be happy if he wins it.” — a Metro Division player.

Sounds like he's a real jerk.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Not a good look for Justin St. Pierre with 42% of responses appointing him the worst Referee. Best response;



Sounds like he's a real jerk.

Meh. I'm admittedly against the whining and crying by many on CP about the refs on the majority of calls against the Flames, but I find it funny how the poll results have Tim Peel show up on both the best and the worst ref as voted by the players

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

...What is more interesting is this bit here.

Do you pay attention to advanced stats?



...

This is honestly unsurprising, and I think it is an irrelevant question. A player who actually understands so-called "advanced stats" and their implications will respond like this:

Originally Posted by Atlantic Division player

“I think it’s intuitive for us. I know when I’ve been getting shelled on a shift or a whole game,” he said. “We know that – I don’t need someone to tell me that. I’ve been doing this for a long time. … You just know if things are going well or not, whether its shot attempts against or whatever metric is being used.”

I would prefer that players not pay attention, because these numbers have a tendency to monitor trends and to measure indirect results of on-ice decisions. The players need to be focused on those things they can control, and more often than not if they are doing their job well the zone-, shot- and scoring-percentages will reflect that.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

...Hockey is a lot more simple than fancy stats advocates promote. The fancy stats tell you what may have happened, but in hockey, the eye-test is what really matters.

How fo you figure?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How fo you figure?

Scouting says hi.

The eye test has always mattered far more than advanced or normal stats.

Surely you aren’t disputing that?

[genetic_phreek]

I can't remember who said this but it's exactly how I feel about analytics:

Paraphrasing: Analytics is like a woman's bikini, it shows a lot but it doesn't show everything.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Scouting says hi.

The eye test has always mattered far more than advanced or normal stats.

Surely you aren’t disputing that?

It's funny, something as basic as NHLe has a higher rate of successful NHLers drafted than draft order (scouting).

The eye test is extremely prone to individual biases and preconcieved notions.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Scouting says hi.

The eye test has always mattered far more than advanced or normal stats.

Surely you aren’t disputing that?

I guess it depends on what the end goal is. If we are talking about scouting individual players then I would mostly agree, but even then—as GranteedEV points out, there are always blindspots in these intuitive exercises. Rather, if the goal is to analyze scoring trends, team-streaks, mechanics behind results, etc., or to attempt to normalize and remove prejudices in intuitive evaluations then no, I disagree that "scouting" is going to provide much useful insight.

ALL of these datapoints are important. And while so-called "advanced stats" are in the process of development, I think they remain significant for how they contribute to advancing HOW the game and individual players are assessed.

[Scorch]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

I can't remember who said this but it's exactly how I feel about analytics:

Paraphrasing: Analytics is like a woman's bikini, it shows a lot but it doesn't show everything.