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Old 12-06-2017, 09:16 PM   #601
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Not sure I follow.
The problem is that it can be impossible to know if an advance will be welcome or unwelcome without having mind-reading super powers. Make an unwelcome advance, and you could be facing a harassment accusation. Don't make a welcome advance, and you could be missing out on the love of your life.

Having women be the ones making the advances doesn't change that - unless you have a different standard for what makes an unwelcome advance unacceptable when a woman is making it towards a man than when a man is making it towards a woman.

What I think needs to happen is for it to become clearly established that potentially unwelcome advances are a necessity to determine if there's reciprocity, and therefore do not constitute an offense (not inherently, they also do not preclude and offense from taking place). Those who get offended by someone trying to get consent, and particularly those who impose seek to impose punishments for it, are actually detrimental to a culture of consent.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:46 PM   #602
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Has anyone ever actually gotten in trouble for a single unwelcome advance at an appropriate time or is this a thing that men are now over thinking.

I mean attempting a kiss at the end of a date
Asking someone out
Sending a dick Pick on a dating website

I have not seen any women in any #metoo post or conversation complain of being harassed by a person for trying to kiss them on a date or asking a person out or even making any kind of next move.

I think this is a natural fear based response of men but isn't actually happening.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:41 PM   #603
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Has anyone ever actually gotten in trouble for a single unwelcome advance at an appropriate time or is this a thing that men are now over thinking.

I mean attempting a kiss at the end of a date
Asking someone out
Sending a dick Pick on a dating website

I have not seen any women in any #metoo post or conversation complain of being harassed by a person for trying to kiss them on a date or asking a person out or even making any kind of next move.

I think this is a natural fear based response of men but isn't actually happening.
It's a natural response to what some branches of feminism are preaching and that could easily become mainstream. If it's not good thinking, if a "rule" is unsound, then the the rule should be changed. Trusting that the rules will not be enforced is a liability and a poor substitute. Right now the rule I see being being advocated is "do not do anything without asking first, and that includes asking". This is an obviously stupid rule which would've completely ended procreation if it existed before Tinder. It needs to go away.

A few things that are memorable to me:

Elevatorgate
. A man says to a woman, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?" She posts a vlog saying she didn't appreciate it and "Guys, don't do this".

That in itself is not cause for alarm. If it's merely an expression of personal preference, fine. What concerns me are the people who think she was somehow violated. He asked for consent (to share space and a coffee), got declined, respected the decline, did not persist, and did not harm her in any way except for how the question made her feel. Other than her feelings, that is exactly how asking for consent is supposed to work. I pointed this out to a friend on Facebook, and apparently that was such an egregious offense that I was promptly unfriended. You get enough people thinking like the person who unfriended me, and even if things aren't "actually happening", they will start to happen.

But hey, you don't even have to hit on someone for them to make you pay for it. The "Dongle" joke. Someone made a big joke about a "big dongle" at a tech developer conference and got fired over it. So I think you have to respect the sense of walking on eggshells, because these things do happen, and because where they aren't happening yet, you can see the pattern of thinking that leads to where they will.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:39 PM   #604
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I disagree that anyone is saying don't ask. They are saying find an appropriate time to ask. And no one is saying it is harassment to ask.

Is 4am after the bar closed in a closed elevator inviting the person back to your room for "coffee". I think the context of the evening before that matters of if that is an appropriate place to politely proposition someone. Were they making out in the bar, body contact, flirting would all Make the ask reasonable but if they were just hanging out in a group that's likely not appropriate. But aside from that there wasn't a consequence for this behaviour. It wasn't brought up as harassment.

The Dongle joke again is a don't make dick jokes at work. That seems like a reasonable standard of care. The consequence was harsh and I hope he sued for wrongful dismissal but it isn't difficult not to make dick jokes.

So while the I don't want this to happen to me fear is real it's not a rational fear for people who behave within the norms. And these Norms are clearly defined in corporate hand books for work related ones.

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Old 12-07-2017, 03:19 AM   #605
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I said it before in a post and I will say it again, when the situation is even remotely reversed between men and women and it's the females who's jobs and hard working careers are threatened its interesting to see the reactions.

Case in my point I was at a corporate event on Wed evening and the service staff at the bar/lounge was really busy. The two male bartenders were helping out with the serving of beverages and food. Well let's just say that the women who were at my table had some sexually charged chatter about the bar staff.

I guess the chocolate moose wasn't nearly as "tasty" as the two lads working the event and the little pocket sized mirror was being passed around so that "I can freshen my lips up so he has somewhere comfortable to sit down" These are direct quotes.

The chatter amongst the girls was about on par with what you would expect from a bunch of guys out and who are checking out the hot waitresses. These are direct quotes I used too.

When I pointed out, to frame a general point, that in 2017 this level of "filth" shouldn't be tolerated in a workplace environment and if I was their manager, some jobs may be in jeopardy. All hell broke loose after that, there was all sort of talk about how hard they had all worked to be where they were and the level of sexual harassment they had to endure to get where they were etc etc. I guess the gist of it was if your on the receiving end of the harassment than your allowed to dish it out but only if your a gal and that sometimes things are "just a little joke" until well, they aren't a joke if the female is offended and than we need to go though 75 steps to ensure that a comment isn't ever uttered again that may offend someone again.

The irony of this little attack I was on the receiving end from the ladies was, in essence a joke. I don't believe anyone female should lose their job for telling a bunch of work friends that the hot bartender is.......hot. I fully expect though that if I ever freshen up my face for the waitress to have somewhere clean to sit down on at a corporate event, instead of Calgary Puck's website, I would probably be on Service Canada's EI website.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:32 AM   #606
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I disagree that anyone is saying don't ask. They are saying find an appropriate time to ask. And no one is saying it is harassment to ask.
Yes, but a significant proportion of people are socially inept, or have poor filters. They aren't exactly clear on what's appropriate, or lack the self-discipline to ensure they never act improperly.

My wife is like that. She says exactly what's on her mind, with no forethought to how it will make someone feel. I've seen her swear up a blue storm in totally unsuitable situations, and when I mention it to her later she doesn't even realize she's done it. She has suffered social consequences for her lack of filter. No doubt there are people who find her brash and offputting. There are also people who find her gregarious and fun.

When you get into sexual dynamics, things get even murkier. Social ineptitude is more prevalent in men than in women. Socially inept men are likely to be clumsy in their approaches to women. They might see a gambit work well for another guy, and try it themselves, not understanding the different context (the other guy is more confident, he knew the woman well before he made the gambit, she was sending off signals that she welcomed an advance). That guy's grasp of a shoulder, or ironic "that's what she said" joke gets a positive reaction. His clumsy effort doesn't. It's creepy. But he genuinely doesn't understand why.

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The Dongle joke again is a don't make dick jokes at work. That seems like a reasonable standard of care. The consequence was harsh and I hope he sued for wrongful dismissal but it isn't difficult not to make dick jokes.

So while the I don't want this to happen to me fear is real it's not a rational fear for people who behave within the norms. And these Norms are clearly defined in corporate hand books for work related ones.
Some people find it easy to be totally buttoned-down at work. Others don't. Personally, I'm a self-conscious and self-disciplined person. I'm confident I've never broken any HR regulations. I'm also a completely different person at work and away from work. To the point where once I get to know co-workers well and go out for drinks with them, they're astonished at how outgoing and fun I can be. They ask why they never see 'this guy' at work. The answer is I strictly regulate my behaviour at all times when I'm a work. But some people do not find that easy at all.

There are two problems with outrage culture:

1) It involves transitioning from a culture where norms are things that most people agree with most of the time, to a culture where 'inappropriate' means anything that could possibly make someone uncomfortable.

2) The penalties for merely inappropriate (rather than predatory) behaviour have become disproportionate. The people policing behavior act as though following these norms is easy for everyone, and all transgression is evidence of malice or a dangerous ignorance.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:08 AM   #607
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I said it before in a post and I will say it again, when the situation is even remotely reversed between men and women and it's the females who's jobs and hard working careers are threatened its interesting to see the reactions.

Case in my point I was at a corporate event on Wed evening and the service staff at the bar/lounge was really busy. The two male bartenders were helping out with the serving of beverages and food. Well let's just say that the women who were at my table had some sexually charged chatter about the bar staff.

I guess the chocolate moose wasn't nearly as "tasty" as the two lads working the event and the little pocket sized mirror was being passed around so that "I can freshen my lips up so he has somewhere comfortable to sit down" These are direct quotes.

The chatter amongst the girls was about on par with what you would expect from a bunch of guys out and who are checking out the hot waitresses. These are direct quotes I used too.

When I pointed out, to frame a general point, that in 2017 this level of "filth" shouldn't be tolerated in a workplace environment and if I was their manager, some jobs may be in jeopardy. All hell broke loose after that, there was all sort of talk about how hard they had all worked to be where they were and the level of sexual harassment they had to endure to get where they were etc etc. I guess the gist of it was if your on the receiving end of the harassment than your allowed to dish it out but only if your a gal and that sometimes things are "just a little joke" until well, they aren't a joke if the female is offended and than we need to go though 75 steps to ensure that a comment isn't ever uttered again that may offend someone again.

The irony of this little attack I was on the receiving end from the ladies was, in essence a joke. I don't believe anyone female should lose their job for telling a bunch of work friends that the hot bartender is.......hot. I fully expect though that if I ever freshen up my face for the waitress to have somewhere clean to sit down on at a corporate event, instead of Calgary Puck's website, I would probably be on Service Canada's EI website.
What you and every other dude who thinks this is a slippery slope leading to a day when no one can ever ask anyone out is missing is that equality doesn't mean everyone is being treated equally.

Like it or not, men are, and should be held to a higher standard when it comes to things like this because by and large, we are likely in a position that will make women feel uncomfortable when we make comments like that.

Is the male bartender going to be offended by this? Maybe.
Is he going to feel like he us unsafe, or unable to defend himself should it go farther than lewd comments? Probably not.

Now ask the same questions about a female server and male customers.

The fact is women have many reasons beyond "I don't want to have sex with that guy" that that sort of interaction may make them uncomfortable. And guys who say "If it's not okay for me to make those kinds of remarks, why is it okay for women?" are missing the point entirely.
It's not solely about the comments, there is a whole lot of context that goes along with it. And you know what, in the right context, sometimes it is okay for you to make those kinds of remarks, sometimes it isn't. The issue is, too many dudes don't understand which is which.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:29 AM   #608
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It's not solely about the comments, there is a whole lot of context that goes along with it. And you know what, in the right context, sometimes it is okay for you to make those kinds of remarks, sometimes it isn't. The issue is, too many dudes don't understand which is which.
Really, when you get right down to it, male privilege inclusively constitutes not having to consider context before you speak.

Guys are just upset that this is now something they have to think about.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:38 AM   #609
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What you and every other dude who thinks this is a slippery slope leading to a day when no one can ever ask anyone out is missing is that equality doesn't mean everyone is being treated equally.

Like it or not, men are, and should be held to a higher standard when it comes to things like this because by and large, we are likely in a position that will make women feel uncomfortable when we make comments like that.

Is the male bartender going to be offended by this? Maybe.
Is he going to feel like he us unsafe, or unable to defend himself should it go farther than lewd comments? Probably not.

Now ask the same questions about a female server and male customers.

The fact is women have many reasons beyond "I don't want to have sex with that guy" that that sort of interaction may make them uncomfortable. And guys who say "If it's not okay for me to make those kinds of remarks, why is it okay for women?" are missing the point entirely.
It's not solely about the comments, there is a whole lot of context that goes along with it. And you know what, in the right context, sometimes it is okay for you to make those kinds of remarks, sometimes it isn't. The issue is, too many dudes don't understand which is which.

I am a little confused as to how the specific situation I mentioned should be treated differently for men and women ? In this situation the ladies weren't asking the bartender out, in fact to my knowledge, I don't even know if he had heard anything specifically other than maybe some light flirting when he was at the table.

I guess what I am having trouble with why should sexual and rude comments being made by women in the corporate workplace should be tolerated but if I a male makes comments all of a sudden its expected he should be railroaded??

I had used an example in earlier posts about guys chatting in a lunchroom about female colleagues and some posters fired back that I should keep my libido in check and that the workplace is not a social club. I agree but are we going to hold our female colleagues to the same standards? Somewhat similar? If a female colleague in the workplace had actually stepped over the line, how comfortable would a male manager be to actually go through the process of firing an employee of some comments?

I am not an expert in this field at all, all I know is how to behave properly and be respectful in the workplace and not play in the grey zones at all but some of the stuff I am hearing from people is just flat out strange. There are no right or wrong answers to every potential incident in a grey area sometimes.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:44 AM   #610
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Well, have you complained to anyone about the comments? Maybe there would be a consequence if someone in charge found out you were offended. I think then you'd have to deal with some actual issues like people thinking you were a putz for calling out bad behavior in women. Or you might come to realize you're not actually offended because there was no offense to you at all. As of now you're just hypothetically upset.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:50 AM   #611
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Pretty sure his issue is trying to find the threshold of where someone becomes a "putz". If complaining about women making lewd comments about men at a corporate event makes him a putz then if there's any kind of consistency a woman who complains about men making lewd comments makes her a putz too.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:50 AM   #612
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Elevatorgate
. A man says to a woman, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?" She posts a vlog saying she didn't appreciate it and "Guys, don't do this".
I could see why she was uncomfortable. She was a public figure in the skeptic community at a convention. A stranger cornered her alone in an elevator at 4 AM from the hotel bar. She had experienced a ton of hateful messages from men on social media. She didn't say it was illegal - just suggested to men that they should not approach women that way.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:11 AM   #613
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Really, when you get right down to it, male privilege inclusively constitutes not having to consider context before you speak.

Guys are just upset that this is now something they have to think about.



I'm not sure that the MP thing is a #metoo moment but it certainly highlights the fact that men just say whatever they want whenever they want. Like why even make that comment? Did he think it would be funny? Why was he trying to be funny? Just take the stupid picture and shut up.

Seems like the offender has done the right thing. Apologized, attended training etc... This is a good outcome for everyone given the context.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:12 AM   #614
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This is why it would be better if we developed a social norm of women taking the initiative sexually. Men are both more likely to be predatory, and more likely to be socially inept than women. It would be nice if we could wave a wand and transform the brains of all men so they're always clear on social context and receptiveness. But that's not going to happen. So the best way to avoid uncomfortable and unpleasant situations is to make women responsible for taking the first steps.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:16 AM   #615
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Like why even make that comment? Did he think it would be funny? Why was he trying to be funny? Just take the stupid picture and shut up.
Why make jokes with a sexual innuendo at all? Ever?
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:17 AM   #616
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Why make jokes with a sexual innuendo at all? Ever?
Maybe not at work? Maybe not in public in front of a bunch of people?

C'mon Cliff, there's a difference between you hanging with your friends or even co-workers in the lunch room v. in front of the public.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:23 AM   #617
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:25 AM   #618
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I could see why she was uncomfortable. She was a public figure in the skeptic community at a convention. A stranger cornered her alone in an elevator at 4 AM from the hotel bar. She had experienced a ton of hateful messages from men on social media. She didn't say it was illegal - just suggested to men that they should not approach women that way.
Agreed, it comes across as creepy because he's cornered her in an elevator and invited her into a private space where he holds control and power. I can easily see why a woman would feel threatened by this kind of proposition from a stranger. She's absolutely right, this is not a considerate approach given the circumstances, even if he meant well.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:32 AM   #619
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Maybe not at work? Maybe not in public in front of a bunch of people?

C'mon Cliff, there's a difference between you hanging with your friends or even co-workers in the lunch room v. in front of the public.
You're right. And I've said it was inappropriate. But those kinds of gaffes are still going to happen, no matter what social sanctions we impose on transgressors. People are imperfect. Different workplaces also have different norms. Do you think waitresses and bartenders behave the same around their co-workers as insurance adjusters?

In the case of the MP, he's a politician, which means he likely feels the need to talk and banter non-stop. And it's a job where the lines between public and private are almost meaningless, since they spend almost all of their evenings at these kind of official social gatherings.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:41 AM   #620
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I am a little confused as to how the specific situation I mentioned should be treated differently for men and women ? In this situation the ladies weren't asking the bartender out, in fact to my knowledge, I don't even know if he had heard anything specifically other than maybe some light flirting when he was at the table.

I guess what I am having trouble with why should sexual and rude comments being made by women in the corporate workplace should be tolerated but if I a male makes comments all of a sudden its expected he should be railroaded??

I had used an example in earlier posts about guys chatting in a lunchroom about female colleagues and some posters fired back that I should keep my libido in check and that the workplace is not a social club. I agree but are we going to hold our female colleagues to the same standards? Somewhat similar? If a female colleague in the workplace had actually stepped over the line, how comfortable would a male manager be to actually go through the process of firing an employee of some comments?

I am not an expert in this field at all, all I know is how to behave properly and be respectful in the workplace and not play in the grey zones at all but some of the stuff I am hearing from people is just flat out strange. There are no right or wrong answers to every potential incident in a grey area sometimes.
Well yeah, that's exactly my point.

People making comments about coworkers in the lunch room probably isn't appropriate for men or women.

People making comments about a bartender at a work function may or may not be crossing the line.

The difference is context, who is making the comments, and the specifics of the comments.


In my office there are three groups of people:
1) People I can joke around with and don't have to worry about offending
2) People who I know I should be more respectful and careful what I say around
3) People who I'm not sure if they are in group 1 or 2

If you don't know what group they are in, assume they are group 2 until you know for sure, it's not that hard.

For most people, the fact that this issue is coming to light so strongly recently isn't an issue because a lot of us know, or have learned through experience, how to read the room and when various levels of interaction are appropriate (who's in which group).

The people who are taking offence to this issue, or are worried we are moving to a place where were we never say anything to anyone are likely the people who only think there is group 1, or have never figured out the bold part.

To address your specific point about how this situation was different let me ask you this. Were you offended or felt threatened based on what the women said, or are you just upset that they are allowed to say it and you aren't?

If it's the former then you shouldn't treat this any different and should consider discussing it with them and explaining how/why that is.
If it's the latter, then you are exactly the type of person I'm talking about who doesn't understand why there is/should be consideration given to who is making a statement and in what context.
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