Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #2

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Thanks for the response, truly. I wasn't seeing enough of that. More people running others down and BT seeming to get it by default or something.

His RFA contracts are great, I will admit

His trades outside of the Hamilton ones are nothing really special. I guess it was actually pretty good work trading Glencross and Russell. I was fully on board with him then. He lost me after Hamonic.

Draft performance is acceptable so far. The team is young and has graduated it's fair share of players. Imagine what could've been with more picks though?

I guess I'm just not seeing his vision for the team. I dont see how this group elevates to the next tier. We needed a 1C out of our rebuild and to take the next step. We still need a 1G. Our 3 best forwards are wingers and our best player is 36. We are kind of a mess right now. Not what I envisioned in 2014.

The most common way to get a #1 C is via the draft. I find it hard to fault him for that one. I think the goaltending situation has been difficult - as we know he took several runs at others, and in some cases was undermined by factors outside of his control (e.g. the owners not being available/willing to approve the Bishop deal IIRC).

On trades (among meaningful ones) I would view them as follows


Wins
Hamilton deal
Hanifin/Lindholm deal (which I view has been good for both teams)
Trading Frolik
Stone (re-signing him was a mistake)
Chiasson
Trading Russel
Trading Hudler
Trading Glencross
Trading Sven for 2nd

Losses
Lazar
Elliott
Hamonic
Bollig

Too Early To Tell
Forbort
Gus

Who the hell knows
Lucic/Neal (I think it's a win and the mistake was signing Neal.)
Smith (they didn't give up a ton, and he had a good year, but then was awful and they had to upgrade the pick to a 2nd)

So I see more good than bad in his deals.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

So I would say Risebrough is the worst. Button second worst.

That's probably right. I think the Button from Coates to Sutter transition and the Feaster/Burke from Sutter to Treliving transitions were both pretty harmful. Both guys dumped a lot of talent for pennies on the dollar. Riseborough will always bear the brunt of the Gilmour deal but he also came in at a hard time to manage the team.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The most common way to get a #1 C is via the draft. I find it hard to fault him for that one. I think the goaltending situation has been difficult - as we know he took several runs at others, and in some cases was undermined by factors outside of his control (e.g. the owners not being available/willing to approve the Bishop deal IIRC).



On trades (among meaningful ones) I would view them as follows





Wins

Hamilton deal

Hanifin/Lindholm deal (which I view has been good for both teams)

Trading Frolik

Stone (re-signing him was a mistake)

Chiasson

Trading Russel

Trading Hudler

Trading Glencross

Trading Sven for 2nd



Losses

Lazar

Elliott

Hamonic

Bollig



Too Early To Tell

Forbort

Gus



Who the hell knows

Lucic/Neal (I think it's a win and the mistake was signing Neal.)

Smith (they didn't give up a ton, and he had a good year, but then was awful and they had to upgrade the pick to a 2nd)



So I see more good than bad in his deals.

What do you make of his current trade drought? Nothing truly impactful since 2018.

I am concerned he is backed into a corner and doesn't know how to improve the team. We need 1C and 1G or we might as well rebuild the rebuild. Without those ingredients, we are sunk. I am flabbergasted at the goaltending at this point. 6 years is enough time to acquire a 1G. 1C is more difficult I will admit.

I should cut him some slack on 1C I guess but I really want to know if we persued O'Reilly or not.

I don't hate the guy personally but I don't think this team can win as currently constructed. I hate where we are at.

Trading Gaudreau will be his defining moment imo. Getting Hall and trading Gaudreau for a bluechip C prospect may just be his get out of jail free card. He needs a 1G. He needs to fix the defense. If he can pull it all off, I might start admiting he might be better than I give him credit for. Lots of work to do though.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Thanks for the response, truly. I wasn't seeing enough of that. More people running others down and BT seeming to get it by default or something.

I honestly don't get how you missed these points. They have been mentioned by several posters in all three of the GM ranking threads.

His RFA contracts are great, I will admit

His trades outside of the Hamilton ones are nothing really special. I guess it was actually pretty good work trading Glencross and Russell. I was fully on board with him then. He lost me after Hamonic.

Draft performance is acceptable so far. The team is young and has graduated it's fair share of players. Imagine what could've been with more picks though?

I guess I'm just not seeing his vision for the team. I dont see how this group elevates to the next tier. We needed a 1C out of our rebuild and to take the next step. We still need a 1G. Our 3 best forwards are wingers and our best player is 36. We are kind of a mess right now. Not what I envisioned in 2014.

One of the reasons I really like Treliving is because from where I sit he can see the same problems that the rest of us do with this team, and he has been aggressive in trying to correct them. I think one interpretation of this is that he has no vision, or that he is proceeding without a plan. Another view is that the vision has not proceeded according to plan for a variety of reasons—the disappointing development of Bennett left the team without what they thought they were getting in a top-line centre; missing a starting goalie because of ownership interference or preferred out-of-conference destinations for trading partners; players invoking their NTCs—and that Treliving has been working his ass off to make corrections on the fly.

I am quite certain that the present team is also not what he envisioned back in 2015, but I also think that the same holds for most GMs over the course of their tenures, as things very seldom work out just according to the plan. No one imagined that David Rittich could be the Flames's starting goaltender in 2020, but thank God Treliving had the foresight to go out and get a free asset of his calibre four years ago.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

What do you make of his current trade drought? Nothing truly impactful since 2018.

I am concerned he is backed into a corner and doesn't know how to improve the team. We need 1C and 1G or we might as well rebuild the rebuild. Without those ingredients, we are sunk. I am flabbergasted at the goaltending at this point. 6 years is enough time to acquire a 1G. 1C is more difficult I will admit.

I should cut him some slack on 1C I guess but I really want to know if we persued O'Reilly or not.

I don't hate the guy personally but I don't think this team can win as currently constructed. I hate where we are at.

Trading Gaudreau will be his defining moment imo. Getting Hall and trading Gaudreau for a bluechip C prospect may just be his get out of jail free card. He needs a 1G. He needs to fix the defense. If he can pull it all off, I might start admiting he might be better than I give him credit for. Lots of work to do though.

Well we know that he had several deals consummated that fell through for reasons outside his control. Most notably the Zucker and Kadri deals, that on the surface, seem like they would have been positive.
One can argue that he shouldn't get points for deals NOT made, but that signals to me that he
- Understands the team in its current form has gaps
- Is able to be an effective trade negotiator with fellow GMs

So to me that tells me he does know how to improve the team, but just hasn't been able to execute to that.

I agree - his defining moment is how he handles Gaudreau.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I honestly don't get how you missed these points. They have been mentioned by several posters in all three of the GM ranking threads.

[/I]
One of the reasons I really like Treliving is because from where I sit he can see the same problems that the rest of us do with this team, and he has been aggressive in trying to correct them. I think one interpretation of this is that he has no vision, or that he is proceeding without a plan. Another view is that the vision has not proceeded according to plan for a variety of reasons—the disappointing development of Bennett left the team without what they thought they were getting in a top-line centre; missing a starting goalie because of ownership interference or preferred out-of-conference destinations for trading partners; players invoking their NTCs—and that Treliving has been working his ass off to make corrections on the fly.

I am quite certain that the present team is also not what he envisioned back in 2015, but I also think that the same holds for most GMs over the course of their tenures, as things very seldom work out just according to the plan. No one imagined that David Rittich could be the Flames's starting goaltender in 2020, but thank God Treliving had the foresight to go out and get a free asset of his calibre four years ago.

I read the thread and the overall tone to me felt like more of a 'why so and so isn't 2' not enough convincing points as to why 'Brad IS 2'.

I appreciate the response though. You're like me, we both express our points bluntly. I think that's why I butt heads with you. I think you're a knowledgeable fan, meant no disrespect. Differing opinions are why we post here, sometimes I get riled up.

Like I said to Jiri, I'm prepared to cut him some slack if he can trade Gaudreau for value and get a 1G. I like Rittich but he is not a guy I want in net for game 7, too emotional. The anti Kipper in that respect. If he can snag Hall, I will be really happy with him.

[Strange Brew]

More recently, he also wanted to buy out Neal and trade assets for a Hall rental.

I’m not seeing Gaudreau as the sole avenue to improving the team, but however he does it certainly will determine whether he remains the GM. You’d have to think either this playoff or next season needs to show some success.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

More recently, he also wanted to buy out Neal and trade assets for a Hall rental.

I’m not seeing Gaudreau as the sole avenue to improving the team, but however he does it certainly will determine whether he remains the GM. You’d have to think either this playoff or next season needs to show some success.

I need to see the Gaudreau trade. I don't give a #### about this year's playoffs. I'll watch them but not living or dying by them like other years. It's not fair to judge any GM on the result of this tournament.

I want Lafreniere, I'll admit it. More than squeaking by Winnipeg in the covid cup preliminary round.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Is that a fact? As I recall the decision to replace Keenan was very closely connected to Sutter's eagerness to get his brother behind the Flames bench. I would like to see more information about this.

Yes, it was from two interviews, one with Darryl and one with Keenan that corroborated each other.

And I found this article as well.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...darryl-sutter/

“We went up against a healthy Chicago Blackhawks team the year I was fired and they were a very good team; they went on to win the Stanley Cup. They had no injuries, we had a plethora of injures on defence, Regehr and Giordano didn’t play, Phaneuf breaks his ribs and Sarich had a broken foot … When I went in there to talk to (then-general manager) Darryl Sutter when he fired me, he said if you didn’t have those injuries you’d be still coaching, so I said why are you firing me and he said ‘I’m not firing you the owners are firing you,” said Keenan, who won a Stanley Cup in 1994 with the New York Rangers.

Followed with this interesting remark

Keenan also questioned whether the team would have been better off keeping Dion Phaneuf, adding: “When you got a superstar forward (Iginla) and certainly a winning goalie (Miikka Kiprusoff) … you need to be anchored by a defenceman that would have the calibre of carrying a team as well so I don’t know if Phaneuf would have drawn into that. He certainly had more upside than another defenceman that I was coaching and he’s a guy that needs a lot of direction and you need to be firm him but he can give you minutes and results offensively.”

[PepsiFree]

I also think a starting goaltender is pretty hard to go out and get. Most of them are drafted and take a while to become the starter. The few that are available just so happen to be because that team drafted two, but we're talking a 4-6 year stretch between when most of those guys get drafted and when they take over the starting role. If Treliving had drafted a grade A goaltending prospect right near the start of his tenure, we might just be seeing him now.

Could we have drafted Demko instead of McDonald in 2014? Sure, but we still wouldn't have a starting goaltender.

Blackwood wasn't an option in 2015, Hart wasn't one in 2016.

So who could we have acquired?
- Bishop we tried, it didn't work out.
- Fleury is a question mark, did we try? I hope so, but he wasn't much better than Rittich this year, if at all.
- Lehner, Varlamov, and Raanta are probably the only three that are better than Rittich where it's not clear how "in" we were. It's not like they were just ours to take, it's a number one goaltender, so you're taking some risk while competing with multiple other GMs.

I don't fault Treliving for not getting a 1G just like I don't fault him for not getting a 1C. Those things aren't just about being a good GM, they take a ton of luck.

I do wish he'd done better on the goaltending front, but I also think getting Rittich for nothing was a huge positive.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

What do you make of his current trade drought? Nothing truly impactful since 2018.

I know you didn't ask me, but I am going to go ahead and offer my take.

As mentioned already, there is a tonne of luck involved in the job, and Treliving's current dry spell has been a result of forces completely beyond his control: He missed out on acquiring a solid top-six winger to replace Frolik in a good deal through no fault of his own. He worked out a great deal for an upgrade at centre which fell through because Nazeem Kadri invoked his NTC. He pitched a great deal to NJ for Taylor Hall, but they preferred the offer from Arizona. Was he given the chance to counter? Did he consider a revised offer too high? Who knows. Did he have talks with Buffalo about Ryan O'Reilly two summers ago? Who knows? But I think it is likely given what we know about Treliving that he probably did, but it is impossible and unfair to criticise the GM for deals with other teams that he didn't make.

I am concerned he is backed into a corner and doesn't know how to improve the team. We need 1C and 1G or we might as well rebuild the rebuild. Without those ingredients, we are sunk. I am flabbergasted at the goaltending at this point. 6 years is enough time to acquire a 1G. 1C is more difficult I will admit...

I think this is a real possibility, but again, I don't put all of that on the GM and continue to believe that Treliving seems well equipped to oversee another build. As for the starting goalie, it has been frustrating, but then again, it certainly has not been for lack of effort, nor for his inability to target quality players.

[Roof-Daddy]

Treliving knows whats wrong, he tried to trade an extra D for a C the summer of 2019 but was blocked by a no trade. He also had another top 6 winger at the 2019 deadline but that was also blocked somehow.

This team is loads better with Kadri and Zucker in the top 9 instead of Janko and Bennett.

Plus we would now have Kadri and Zucker with term and value instead of a D who is probably leaving for nothing and Janko with his value at an all time low.

[Roof-Daddy]

Plus wasn't Connor Brown rumored to be part of the Brodie for Kadri swap? He went to OTT and was on pace for 20g and 50p because they gave him top 6 minutes for once.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Kadri - Brown
Zucker - Backlund- Mangiapane


Makes me sick looking at what might have been.

[Sylvanfan]

For me, how the next couple of years work out will define Treliving for me. The Daryl Sutter story has been written. The Treliving one is still ongoing. If he can find a way to advance the team from it's current perch I will be willing to acknowledge it. But if the team goes the way of the Sutter Flames it will be interesting to see what people think of these past 6 years in 10 years.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Plus wasn't Connor Brown rumored to be part of the Brodie for Kadri swap? He went to OTT and was on pace for 20g and 50p because they gave him top 6 minutes for once.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Kadri - Brown
Zucker - Backlund- Mangiapane


Makes me sick looking at what might have been.

It's hard to track but in my head Brown was in there as part of a 3-way deal where he wouldn't have stayed in Calgary.
But I can't fully recall.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's hard to track but in my head Brown was in there as part of a 3-way deal where he wouldn't have stayed in Calgary.
But I can't fully recall.

You are right Jiri.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

For me, how the next couple of years work out will define Treliving for me. The Daryl Sutter story has been written. The Treliving one is still ongoing. If he can find a way to advance the team from it's current perch I will be willing to acknowledge it. But if the team goes the way of the Sutter Flames it will be interesting to see what people think of these past 6 years in 10 years.

Aside from anything else, Treliving has missed on every coaching hire. That was enough to put him below Coates; as far as vis-a-vis Sutter, I would have had to think hard.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Aside from anything else, Treliving has missed on every coaching hire. That was enough to put him below Coates; as far as vis-a-vis Sutter, I would have had to think hard.

He definitely missed on Gulutzan, but I think the situation with Peters is more complicated. From a tactical/motivational standpoint I still believe that Peters was a much better coach than either Hartley or Gulutzan.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

He definitely missed on Gulutzan, but I think the situation with Peters is more complicated. From a tactical/motivational standpoint I still believe that Peters was a much better coach than either Hartley or Gulutzan.

Agree to disagree

Hartley got a full year overachievement out of a team with a weak roster. Built a system to suit the team, had an identity. Won a playoff round. And, oh, Hartley also has a cup.

Peters had a half good year of high octane hockey, played worse down the stretch. Made the playoffs with a very good roster, got out coached in the playoffs, and the next year couldn’t get the team playing anywhere near their potential

Both guys wore thin on their teams pretty quickly.

Much better? I’d be interested in why / how

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Agree to disagree

Hartley got a full year overachievement out of a team with a weak roster. Built a system to suit the team, had an identity. Won a playoff round. And, oh, Hartley also has a cup.

Peters had a half good year of high octane hockey, played worse down the stretch. Made the playoffs with a very good roster, got out coached in the playoffs, and the next year couldn’t get the team playing anywhere near their potential

Both guys wore thin on their teams pretty quickly.

Much better? I’d be interested in why / how

I consider Peters much better because tactically speaking his system was sustainable, and when the players played within it they utterly dominated for long stretches within games. Hartley's approach was to have his players lay down in front of everything in sight, hope for an odd-man break as a result and then pray to the hockey gods that they capitalise.

No argument, though—both coaches wore thin very quickly with the players.