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View Poll Results: Pick the best general manager from the following list
Doug Risebrough 1 0.43%
Al Coates 62 26.38%
Craig Button 0 0%
Darryl Sutter 38 16.17%
Jay Feaster 2 0.85%
Brian Burke 2 0.85%
Brad Treliving 130 55.32%
Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-08-2020, 01:27 PM   #41
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People have put forth valid opinions for why they have voted. You can seek to understand those perspectives, or you can toss away the views with a simplistic comment like the above.

There are valid arguments on either side. And I didn't even vote for BT.
But I appreciate the positions being put forth on either side, rather than dismissing them altogether.
Sorry, which arguments have I dismissed?

I want to listen to any argument for or against. I have already been persuaded to view Coates much better than I did originally. And the arguments for Phaneuf in the defenseman poll certainly changed my mind, as I would have had someone else there.

The votes for Brad Treliving as the greatest GM in franchise history do lead me to believe there is a recency bias, but perhaps those voters can argue otherwise.
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:29 PM   #42
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Some really good conversations around this. I think I have been swayed to the Coates side for number 2. Sutter really did have an opportunity to elevate himself but his drafting is a pretty substantial flaw. Things just snowballed as the team kept missing on 1st rounders. All that was compounded by throwing 2nds to compensate that the team had trouble graduating players. I mentioned it the first poll, but it really would be interesting to see how things would have panned out if Sutter had a different philosophy at the draft. Had he gone BPA things would have different.
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:31 PM   #43
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What did Feaster leave him? It was basically scorched earth. Some nice peices at the time from sucking in Monahan (though Feaster almost blew that) and Bennett (byproduct of Feaster's reign). Gaudreau was uncertain at the time, small forward with potential. Gio was here I guess, but he wasn't the 1D he is now. Ferland, Brodie I guess. Pretty bleak start for BT and I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, a few bottom 5 years in order to build something as the franchise had never really been so shallow on assets. The late 90s came close but there was still good stuff there, Sutter inherited some good foundational peices. BT inherited question marks, draft picks and Giordano.
BT also inherited a fanbase ready for a rebuild and willingness to be patient. Maybe he didn't inherit an ownership group with the same attitude.
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:50 PM   #44
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Looking purely just at his moves and drafting then I think Treliving would take this over Sutter.

But when you consider the impact that Sutter had on the organization (revitalizing the franchise, taking a team to the stanley cup finals, starting our farm system, etc) you have to push him ahead of Treliving from that perspective.

Edit: I can kind of see having Treliving ahead of Sutter, but having Coates ahead of Sutter is ridiculous. I get the economy was a struggle but he pretty much was the architect of the team that didn't make the playoffs for 7 years in the 90s.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with people saying Coates. 8 out of his 40 draft picks played for the Flames. He had two 6th overall picks and they turned into Rico Fata and Daniel Tkachuk. Plus the team that he managed never made the playoffs (Outside of taking over mid-season his first year).

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Old 07-08-2020, 02:02 PM   #45
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The next 2-3 years will ultimately define Treliving. 6 years in...people still would have been very supportive of Darryl Sutter. It was the following 4 years where things went sour. We will see if Treliving can avoid a similar fate. Right now I think he could be poised to crash too unless he can make some significant corrections to this past year.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:47 PM   #46
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I've been pretty critical of Sutter for drafting terribly and leaving a mess behind but at least he got results. He renewed my enthusiasm as a fan and gave us some of the best hockey this franchise has ever seen. Treliving has been decent but has also made some pretty poor decisions. Coates was dealt a crappy hand but he wasn't better than Sutter. Had to go with Darryl.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:52 PM   #47
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Looking purely just at his moves and drafting then I think Treliving would take this over Sutter.

But when you consider the impact that Sutter had on the organization (revitalizing the franchise, taking a team to the stanley cup finals, starting our farm system, etc) you have to push him ahead of Treliving from that perspective.

Edit: I can kind of see having Treliving ahead of Sutter, but having Coates ahead of Sutter is ridiculous. I get the economy was a struggle but he pretty much was the architect of the team that didn't make the playoffs for 7 years in the 90s.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with people saying Coates. 8 out of his 40 draft picks played for the Flames. He had two 6th overall picks and they turned into Rico Fata and Daniel Tkachuk. Plus the team that he managed never made the playoffs (Outside of taking over mid-season his first year).
Fata I will grant you was a mis-step, but Tkaczuk was nobody's fault. He was on track to be a strong top 6 forward until his injuries. Can't predict that happening.

Coates may not have had the team in the playoffs, but he was bargain bin shopping, and even so, the team was at least competitive the whole time. And yes, the young guns were underwhelming, but there was a clear purpose to the building. Many of those young players worked out and became great NHLers, some became mediocre ones, and others flat out busted. That happens in any rebuild, which is definitely was. He laid a framework for Button to build on, and then Button fumbled the ball, badly. So much so that Sutter was brought in to rescue the franchise, which he definitely did for the first few years, and then eventually lost the plot.

At any rate, Coates may not have been our best GM, which is evident from the poll, but he also didn't make any terrible errors. I consider him a very strong "caretaker" GM who wasn't given the resources to really improve the team. Even so, he did everything short of trading for or signing a superstar to get the team in the playoffs, and he would never be given permission to do so from the ownership group at the time. I see strong positives in his tenure, with little that he did wrong (no GM is perfect). He had the worst possible time to be a GM for the Flames, and handled the circumstances well. That's all you could ask of him.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:54 PM   #48
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Had to go Sutter here.

Brought me back as a flames fan, as I was basically done as a Flames/NHL fan by 2003, after a decade of being a joke. Made the playoffs and a contending team for 5 consecutive years by making some pretty big acquisitions (kipper, langkow, Tanguay, Huselius, cammalleri, bouwmeester, aside from key guys for the cup run). He wasn't a great drafter/development building GM, but that did improve over his tenure (backhand, Ferland, Brodie, and picking up a guy like Giordano). Unfortunately, he'll be judged harshly for how things ended, which is where he got extremely desperate and made some horrid asset management moves.

It was close between Sutter and Coates. Treliving was a definitely after both in my mind.

Treliving came into an or with the #4 pick in the draft (ie. a rebuilding team) that already had a few building blocks in the pipeline (Monahan, Gaudraeu - though he was definitely a question mark at the time) and cap room.

it'll be 6 years since his hiring, and it's been a bumpy, up and down every other season type tenure. His greatest move as GM has been getting lindholm. However, I am not sold on many of his trades still. In hindsight, I don't think GMs of teams not clearly out of their rebuild should be trading away high round picks. Treliving gave up 2x first round picks and 3x 2nd round picks as the acquisition cost for Hamilton, Hamonic and Lazar. At the stage of the rebuild the flames were at, those are pretty brutal moves (luckily the Hamilton deal led to lindholm, or it would have been pretty fugly).

The high round drafing has been good (tkachuk, valimaki, dude, Andersson) with some solid picks in later rounds (fox, mangiapane, kylington). That being said, the cupboards are relatively barren compared to most other organizations. That's with little growth and maturing to a true contending frachise.

A middling roster, with not much in the way of high end prospects coming isn't something I am all that excited about as a fan.
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:18 PM   #49
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The team he built placed first in the Conference for the first time since the SC Championship team, won the Division for the first time since 2006, and registered the second-highest point-total in the history of the franchise.

Yeah, Treliving still has a lot of work to do, but let's at least be honest about his record. If he wins this round—as it appears he will—it will be on merit.

On merit? ... because of one good regular season where the teams faltered down the stretch and meekly slunk away after having their asses handed to them in the playoffs?

You want to be my boss?
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:35 PM   #50
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The next 2-3 years will ultimately define Treliving. 6 years in...people still would have been very supportive of Darryl Sutter. It was the following 4 years where things went sour. We will see if Treliving can avoid a similar fate. Right now I think he could be poised to crash too unless he can make some significant corrections to this past year.
There was no 4 year decline for Sutter.

As of this upcoming December, also, FYI, Tre and Darryl will have had the same tenure. (well, a year longer for Sutter but with a full year lost)
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:43 PM   #51
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On merit? ... because of one good regular season where the teams faltered down the stretch and meekly slunk away after having their asses handed to them in the playoffs?
Yes. On merit. Because Treliving has achieved more than just one spectacular regular season finish:

· He has demonstrably improved the team, and has put together a solid core.
· He has drafted well, and appears to have the scouting staff organized and focussed on player attributes that are paying dividends.
· He has shown a propensity to correctly identify problems in the roster, and is aggressive at correcting them.
· He has owned all of his mistakes, and continues to learn, grow and work to correct them.
· His teams have made the playoffs three out of his five-years on the job, and look like a good bet to make that six in four.

These factors certainly constitute merit. And to my original point, the second-best regular season finish in franchise history most definitely satisfies your dismissive pining for "some kind—any kind of on ice success."
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:44 PM   #52
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Yes. On merit. Because Treliving has done more than just one spectacular regular season finish:

· He has demonstrably improved the team, and has put together a solid core.
· He has drafted well, and appears to have the scouting staff organized and focussed on player attributes that are paying dividends.
· He has shown a propensity to correctly identify problems in the roster, and is aggressive at correcting them.
· He has owned all of his mistakes, and continues to learn, grow and work to correct them.
· His teams have made the playoffs three out of his five-years on the job, and look like a good bet to make that six in four.

These factors certainly constitute merit. And to my original point, the second-best regular season finish in franchise history most definitely satisfies your dismissive pining for "some kind—any kind of on ice success."

A wee bit of hyperbole.

I see no circumstance where his performance exceeds Sutter’s based on merit.
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:49 PM   #53
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A wee bit of hyperbole.

I see no circumstance where his performance exceeds Sutter’s based on merit.
And that is where you, I and dozens of posters on this board differ.
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:52 PM   #54
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And that is where you, I and dozens of posters on this board differ.

Absolutely. Great thing about opinions, you are all free to be wrong :-)
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:57 PM   #55
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Yes. On merit. Because Treliving has done more than just one spectacular regular season finish:

· He has demonstrably improved the team, and has put together a solid core.
· He has drafted well, and appears to have the scouting staff organized and focussed on player attributes that are paying dividends.
· He has shown a propensity to correctly identify problems in the roster, and is aggressive at correcting them.
· He has owned all of his mistakes, and continues to learn, grow and work to correct them.
· His teams have made the playoffs three out of his five-years on the job, and look like a good bet to make that six in four.

These factors certainly constitute merit. And to my original point, the second-best regular season finish in franchise history most definitely satisfies your dismissive pining for "some kind—any kind of on ice success."
Your points are opinion based though. Improving the team, owning his mistakes and correcting problems on the roster aren't established facts or backed by analysis. So some may see it differently.

DM's point on winning is a fair one. And while its fair to point out the fantastic regular season last year, it's hard to ignore how it ended. You can nit pick how he said it, but fact is BT's teams have accomplished little thus far particularly in comparison to who he was being compared against. I can also appreciate that some may feel the best is yet to come for BT's Flames, which is different than the point DM was making, but certainly a reason to think BT is doing a good job.

We agree that Treliving is winning this round on merit. He has received more votes than the others, which defines success in this exercise. Just like he earned 10% of the vote in the first round on merit as well.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:29 PM   #56
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There was no 4 year decline for Sutter.

As of this upcoming December, also, FYI, Tre and Darryl will have had the same tenure. (well, a year longer for Sutter but with a full year lost)
Sutter was hired as GM in April of 2003 and stepped down in December of 2010..so I am wrong I thought he stuck around at least one more year. But it was that last year and a half where things unraveled on him. So he had 7.5 years. Treliving will be at that tenure in December of 2021.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:59 PM   #57
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Sutter was hired as GM in April of 2003 and stepped down in December of 2010..so I am wrong I thought he stuck around at least one more year. But it was that last year and a half where things unraveled on him. So he had 7.5 years. Treliving will be at that tenure in December of 2021.
Well sure, in human years. But in hockey years, don’t forget that Sutter missed an entire season. So you should lop a year off of your view of BT’s tenure.

Things unraveled on him when the owners forced him to fire Keenan and hide his brother. And when Phaneuf did whatever he did that made him have to be removed from the team right away.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:01 PM   #58
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I went with Coates after being convinced yesterday he made the best out of a bad situation. Also acquiring the best player in franchise history has to count for something.

Treliving was strongly considered for his professional approach and quickly turning around an asset depleted bottom feeder. It took Cliff Fletcher 17 years to turn an expansion team into a cup winner so think we need to give Treliving more time to assess his turn around of what was essentially an expansion type roster.

I also thought about Burke since he brought in much needed professionalism and swagger while not screwing anything up. Too short a tenure though and as mentioned also needs to share blame for the 2014 draft. Probably belongs somewhere in the middle.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:41 PM   #59
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I went with Coates after being convinced yesterday he made the best out of a bad situation. Also acquiring the best player in franchise history has to count for something.

Treliving was strongly considered for his professional approach and quickly turning around an asset depleted bottom feeder. It took Cliff Fletcher 17 years to turn an expansion team into a cup winner so think we need to give Treliving more time to assess his turn around of what was essentially an expansion type roster.

I also thought about Burke since he brought in much needed professionalism and swagger while not screwing anything up. Too short a tenure though and as mentioned also needs to share blame for the 2014 draft. Probably belongs somewhere in the middle.
If we give BT 17 years, I am out. The team peaked in 89 but they were showing signs in the early 80s. Positive improvement and impact peices being added regularly. Can't compare eras but to say it took Cliff 17 years is a bit disingenuous. The team was good to great before that.

2014
Gio-3/4 guy as recently as 2013
Brodie-solid youngster
Gaudreau-prospect
Monahan-rookie
Backlund-almost discarded by Feaster
What else was there really?
Janko-prospect
Russell, Wideman, etc. Stuff that any team has

2020

Tkachuk-draft, got EXTREMELY fortunate
Lindholm-trade, kudos
Gaudreau-draft before BT
Monahan-draft before BT
Gio- inherited, turned into 1D
Brodie-inherited, about to let walk
Backlund-inherited, good 2C
Andersson-drafted, kudos
Hanifin-we'll see but I think he's Bret Hedican at best
Bennett-swing and a miss
Valimaki-jury is out
Mangi-good pick
Dube-we'll see
Janko-bust
Rittich-he scares the #### out of me tbh but seems overall to be average. Would not trust him in a game 7 situation. Looks like a great 1A but not a true blue starter. Too emotional, the anti Kipper.

I need to see more after 6 years. Maybe that's just me. I feel Tod Button is overrated and I'm not sure why he's been around so long. Two impact trades and selecting good players and prospects in RDs 1 and 2 mostly. Other guys that have potential but nothing special. Dube intrigues me the most but I suspect he will be a Cirelli at best, not a Point.

I give Tre props on Hammy and Lindholm but that's about it. The rfa deals are nice but were mostly wasted. What was the extra cap space used on?
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:42 PM   #60
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Well sure, in human years. But in hockey years, don’t forget that Sutter missed an entire season. So you should lop a year off of your view of BT’s tenure.
I don't think so. He still had to draft and oversee the AHL team. So even though there was not a hockey season it was a year to still manage the overall organization.

At one point people were very approving of what Daryl Sutter had done. Time has worn that away. Sutter's teams had a playoff record of 13-20 losing their last 5 series. His drafting was not very good and he did make some off trades. But I am not so convinced that Treliving has been so much better at this point. Really out of Bennett, Anderson, Dube, Kylington, Tkachuck, Mangiapane, and Valimaki how much of the Flames improved drafting is based on known results as opposed to what fans anticipate in the future? Adam Fox can factor into drafting too.
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