Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[Bingo]

Instead of voting in just one we'll vote on in a day to get an overall ranking list. Then I'll move on to coaching.

As per usual apply your own standard to picking your favourite.

[Bingo]

Have to go with Cliff Fletcher don't you?

Cup, tenure, not a great draft record, but was excellent in transactions, and developed the US college free agent path.

Can remember at the time the number of people that wanted the guy fired though, but then I guess that always exists in a Canadian market.

[Roof-Daddy]

Cliff Fletcher for sure, but I still despise him for F-ing off to TO and then picking Risebrough's pockets too.

[Bingo]

Some big Fletcher trades ...

Don Lever
Bob MacMillan
for
Lanny McDonald
1983 4th round pick (#65-Mikko Makela)

John Tonelli
for
Steve Konroyd
Rich Kromm

Terry Johnson
Joe Mullen
Rik Wilson
for
Eddy Beers
Charles Bourgeois
Gino Cavallini

Kent Nilsson
1986 or 1987 3rd round pick (1986 #58-Brad Turner)
for
1985 2nd round pick (#27-Joe Nieuwendyck)
1987 2nd round pick (#25-Stephane Matteau)

1983 2nd round pick (#35-Todd Francis)
1984 3rd round pick (#54-Graeme Bonar)
for
Doug Risebrough
1983 2nd round pick (#38-Frantisek Musil)

Steve Bozek
Michael Dark
Doug Gilmour
Mark Hunter
for
Mike Bullard
Tim Corkery
Craig Coxe

Rob Ramage
Rick Wamsley
for
Steve Bozek
Brett Hull

[savardandjokinen]

Noticing Sutter has the 2nd most votes

He might be my 1st or 2nd vote for coach but definitely not for GM

[CofR]

If anyone votes for Feaster they should be banned

[looooob]

Yes I think its Fletcher quite easily


The Hull trade is a blemish (although I will always defend it) and I think (as we have discussed in the player ranking threads) especially near the end he was giving up on guys like Reinhart and Mullen too soon for too little, I think maybe he felt the magic drafting (a la Nilsson ) trade would just keep going and they could keep restocking


look at the teams draft record 79-89- consider that haul in the context of no top 5 draft picks


then add in the success with finding undrafted college players


and he went for it at the right times with trades- in 86 ( a season where they suffered a massive midseason slump) he recognized the push his rookies Vernon, Otto, Suter, Berezan et al were giving his group- adds a Tonelli and a Mullen (I mean really wtf)


leading up to 87-88 or so and through 89 recognizes the team has high octane offence to spare, needs balance- enter McCrimmon, Ramage, Wamsley, Gilmour, Hunter...yes the cost was big but so was the reward

[tvp2003]

^^ Fletcher also did a great job finding talent at US colleges -- something that wasn't common at the time. Landed him Suter, Otto and Nieuwendyk. You could potentially include Badger Bob as well.

[Erick Estrada]

Oh boy there is a massive decline after Fletcher. Burke I don't count a lot seeing he was more interim.

[corporatejay]

Sutter was a fantastic coach. Terrible GM.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

Noticing Sutter has the 2nd most votes

He might be my 1st or 2nd vote for coach but definitely not for GM

Sutter being a bad GM is weird to me because he was widely considered an excellent GM until the Phaneuf trade and then the opinion of him did a 180. Without that 1 trade he'd probably easily still be considered a good GM.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Sutter being a bad GM is weird to me because he was widely considered an excellent GM until the Phaneuf trade and then the opinion of him did a 180. Without that 1 trade he'd probably easily still be considered a good GM.

The draft record under him is awful and created an asset deficit for the organization that it is still digging out from.
Can't ignore that.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The draft record under him is awful and created an asset deficit for the organization that it is still digging out from.
Can't ignore that.

Fair points. But I have to ask, how much of that terrible draft record was due to the fact that there was literally no developmental system when he took over the reigns and the previous regime(s) had reduced the scouting department to almost nothing due to cash saving measures because of the terrible Canadian dollar?

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Have to go with Cliff Fletcher don't you?

Cup, tenure, not a great draft record, but was excellent in transactions, and developed the US college free agent path.

Can remember at the time the number of people that wanted the guy fired though, but then I guess that always exists in a Canadian market.

Not a great draft record? What?
Fletcher had all time great drafts. Hull, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Suter, Reichel, etc..

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Not a great draft record? What?
Fletcher had all time great drafts. Hull, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Suter, Reichel, etc..

yes that one perplexes me too
Reinhart, Peplinski, MacInnis, Vernon, Loob, Suter, Roberts, Hull, Ranheim,Nieuwendyk, Makarov, Reichel, Bradley, Quinn, Fleury, Konroyd, Matteau, Grimson, Glynn, Hrdina, Lamb, Berezan, Manderville Kromm, Lavallee, Hunter and more I"m sure in a 10 year span


essentially 2+ NHLers/ a year, with one being a star to HOF level on average


I guess where the concern comes from is it starts to drop off in the mid to late 80s/early 90s- keeps the repuataion alive by hitting on some late picks but the first rounders (when they have them) start busting (or sadly dying)

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Fair points. But I have to ask, how much of that terrible draft record was due to the fact that there was literally no developmental system when he took over the reigns and the previous regime(s) had reduced the scouting department to almost nothing due to cash saving measures because of the terrible Canadian dollar?

They would have performed better if they had drafted simply off any of the assembled lists. My view is that a lot of the issue was due to the overall direction that Sutter was providing - with more emphasis on size and toughness and not enough on skill and skating.

Quick review, starting with 2003 (I can't recall who ran the 2002 draft)

2003:
#9- Dion Phaneuf. No other NHLers from the other 8 picks

2004:
#24: Kris Chucko. Bust. The next five players picked were Rob Schremp (114 games), Cory Schneider (409), Jeff Schultz (409), Mark Fistric (325) and Mike Green (880). Bad pick.
#98: You get 220 games out of Dustin Boyd but he proved not to be much
A couple of late round gems: Adam Pardy (342 games) and Adam Cracknell (210 games).

2005:
#26: Matt Pelech. 13 games. Next 5 picks were Joe Finley (21), Matt Miskanen (949), Steve Downie (434), and Vlad Mihalik (15). Bad pick
Only other player drafted of note the rest of the way was Brett Sutter (60 games). Dan Ryder seemed like a great pick, but we know what happened there. But 61 total NHL games from the remaining 7 draft picks.

2006:
#26: Leland Irving. 13 games. Next 5 picks were Ivan Vishnevsky (5), Nick Foligno (908), Chris Summer (70), and Matt Corrente (34). Bad pick but not much else around that spot of the draft.
The team didn't get a single NHL game out of the remaining 7 picks they made.

2007
#24: Michael Backlund. Great pick.
4 more picks made and with Keith Aulie having 167 NHL games.
Mickey Renaud was probably a great pick. RIP.

2008
#25: Greg Nemisz. Bust. Next 5 picks were Ennis (613), Carlson (757), Tikhonov (111) and Daultan Leveille (0). Bad pick and some value around that area including Markstrom at 272.
This was a good draft though as they got Bouma at #78 and the home run at 114 with Brodie. I would argue Brodie was probably Sutter's best pick in his entire tenure.

2009:
#23: Tom Erixon. Bust. Next 5 picks were Marcus Johansson (648), Jordan Caron (157), Kyle Palmieri (561) and Phillip Paradis (0). Bad pick.
Out of the remaining 5 picks the only thing they got was Joni Ortio.


I don't have time to continue that no matter how you slice it that is a brutal record with a high volume of busts with 1st round picks and, with rare exceptions, a complete inability to find players in the other rounds.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Fair points. But I have to ask, how much of that terrible draft record was due to the fact that there was literally no developmental system when he took over the reigns and the previous regime(s) had reduced the scouting department to almost nothing due to cash saving measures because of the terrible Canadian dollar?

He rebuilt all of that early in his tenure and his draft record didn't get better as time progressed. Arguably, it got worse.

Sutter was the GM for 8 drafts (2003-2010). In that time, the Flames drafted 10 players who played in 100+ NHL games. Only 2 of those 10 were drafted in the first or second round (Phaneuf and Backlund).

Only 3 of Sutter's picks hit 500 NHL games (Phaneuf, Backlund, and Brodie). Ferland is the only player left who could one day reach 500 games, but his injury history makes it unlikely.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Not a great draft record? What?
Fletcher had all time great drafts. Hull, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Suter, Reichel, etc..

For sure ... egregious error on my behalf.

When I typed that out I had Deasley, Muzzatti, Manderville, Sunblad, Mattson on the brain.

[The Cobra]

Feasters hands were tied by the owners, so his record is marred by that.

He left the organization in much better shape than he inherited it.

He was likely a better GM than Sutter, who was terrible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

They would have performed better if they had drafted simply off any of the assembled lists. My view is that a lot of the issue was due to the overall direction that Sutter was providing - with more emphasis on size and toughness and not enough on skill and skating.

Quick review, starting with 2003 (I can't recall who ran the 2002 draft)

2003:
#9- Dion Phaneuf. No other NHLers from the other 8 picks

2004:
#24: Kris Chucko. Bust. The next five players picked were Rob Schremp (114 games), Cory Schneider (409), Jeff Schultz (409), Mark Fistric (325) and Mike Green (880). Bad pick.
#98: You get 220 games out of Dustin Boyd but he proved not to be much
A couple of late round gems: Adam Pardy (342 games) and Adam Cracknell (210 games).

2005:
#26: Matt Pelech. 13 games. Next 5 picks were Joe Finley (21), Matt Miskanen (949), Steve Downie (434), and Vlad Mihalik (15). Bad pick
Only other player drafted of note the rest of the way was Brett Sutter (60 games). Dan Ryder seemed like a great pick, but we know what happened there. But 61 total NHL games from the remaining 7 draft picks.

2006:
#26: Leland Irving. 13 games. Next 5 picks were Ivan Vishnevsky (5), Nick Foligno (908), Chris Summer (70), and Matt Corrente (34). Bad pick but not much else around that spot of the draft.
The team didn't get a single NHL game out of the remaining 7 picks they made.

2007
#24: Michael Backlund. Great pick.
4 more picks made and with Keith Aulie having 167 NHL games.
Mickey Renaud was probably a great pick. RIP.

2008
#25: Greg Nemisz. Bust. Next 5 picks were Ennis (613), Carlson (757), Tikhonov (111) and Daultan Leveille (0). Bad pick and some value around that area including Markstrom at 272.
This was a good draft though as they got Bouma at #78 and the home run at 114 with Brodie. I would argue Brodie was probably Sutter's best pick in his entire tenure.

2009:
#23: Tom Erixon. Bust. Next 5 picks were Marcus Johansson (648), Jordan Caron (157), Kyle Palmieri (561) and Phillip Paradis (0). Bad pick.
Out of the remaining 5 picks the only thing they got was Joni Ortio.


I don't have time to continue that no matter how you slice it that is a brutal record with a high volume of busts with 1st round picks and, with rare exceptions, a complete inability to find players in the other rounds.

That doesn't answer my question, that just gives the final outcome which we all already know. Poor drafting may be the cause, from everything I have ever heard it sounds like Sutter deferred to scouts after the first round. Yet currently with with the same head of scouting, more scouts added to the mix, and an actual development system in place, our picks after round 1 are massively improved. The cause of those results could very easily be scouting and development.

Your lists also go to show how much worse drafting was back in that era, the fact you listed the next 4 picks in the first round in 5 of those drafts and 9 of 20 names listed were also busts is pretty telling IMO. In addition, all but Dion were picks in the bottom third of the 1st round, compare that to after Sutter, where the drafting is often said to pretty good, we have had 4 picks in that range, 2 were busts, Poirier and Klimchuk, 1 is one of the most criticized players on our team for not being good enough in Janko, the other is far too soon to tell anything in Pelletier.

Is drafting in the first round really improved? Or it a product of having higher picks? Because the only first rounders to turn into much of anything were top 10 picks in Monahan and Tkachuk. Is the drafting in subsequent rounds better? or is it the result of higher picks in those rounds and having a lot more picks in rounds 2 and 3?

Since I do have time, maybe I will look at this further and break it down more.