Pronman: Flames have #31-ranked farm system in NHL

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

We have two threads side by side on the main board.

One is the Flames prospect thread where the top 3 voted prospects by the board are Valimaki, Dube and Kylington.

Right next to that thread is the ranking of the flames prospect pool which has everyone making excuses that the prospect pool looks weak because Dube, Kylington and Valimaki have all graduated.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

Embarrassing post.

Don't take your inability to understand the two separate discussions out on others.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So 4 examples, averaging roughly 30% fewer graduates. Cool.

By the way, we can add Granlund, and arguably Broissoit, to the Flames list.

Originally Posted by agulati

Baertschi as well.

So you want to add Dougie Hamilton to Boston's list then?

Binnington to St. Louis'?

Why not really spread things out and go back to to 2010, add Ferland (who already appears on the list for calgary) and add Seguin to the bruins, Tarasenko and Schwartz to the Blues, Jeff Skinner, Justin Faulk and Feddy Andersen to the canes? Kuznetsov and Grubauer to Washington?

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But Calgary is doing this as a non playoff, rebuilding roster. They SHOULD be graduating more players as the team has had lots of spots to fill.

The Flames were 2nd in the entire NHL last year and had three rookie defencemen play 136 games between them. They had ten players 23 and under play over 20 games.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So you want to add Dougie Hamilton to Boston's list then?

Binnington to St. Louis'?

Why not really spread things out and go back to to 2010, add Ferland (who already appears on the list for calgary) and add Seguin to the bruins, Tarasenko and Schwartz to the Blues, Jeff Skinner, Justin Faulk and Feddy Andersen to the canes? Kuznetsov and Grubauer to Washington?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

We have two threads side by side on the main board.

One is the Flames prospect thread where the top 3 voted prospects by the board are Valimaki, Dube and Kylington.

Right next to that thread is the ranking of the flames prospect pool which has everyone making excuses that the prospect pool looks weak because Dube, Kylington and Valimaki have all graduated.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

That's not cake and eat it too .... it's literally the issue with the second topic isn't it?

I'm waiting for the Oilers list. Yamamoto is a prospect, and certainly hasn't been graduated, but he's played 1 more game than Dube and 2 more games than Valimaki.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's not cake and eat it too .... it's literally the issue with the second topic isn't it?

I'm waiting for the Oilers list. Yamamoto is a prospect, and certainly hasn't been graduated, but he's played 1 more game than Dube and 2 more games than Valimaki.

I feel like for the sake of these discussions the oilers don't even exist.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I feel like for the sake of these discussions the oilers don't even exist.

It illustratres potential inconsistency in if a player is a prospect or not which in turn impacts the rankings

[Toonage]

But the Oilers don't have prospects. They have lemmings.

[Strange Brew]

It feels like with the rapid escalation in RFA contracts, having a young roster isn't quite the advantage it was a few years ago. On the plus side, Treliving locked in most of these guys on reasonable deals, either before things really escalated (Gaudreau, Monahan) or before the player busted out (Lindholm). On the negative side, the benefits of these good deals have been mostly frittered away at the bottom of the roster.

[dino7c]

honestly this is perfectly fine...if the Flames are good, very good....a top team like last season.

Some teams have supposedly had great prospects for a decade or more but they always suck at the NHL level.

Flames have traded draft picks for high end young players which is perfectly fine...seems to be working

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It illustratres potential inconsistency in if a player is a prospect or not which in turn impacts the rankings

I meant I just assume they are the worst in every category applicable to measuring hockey

They are the worst organization in pro sport, so I assume their prospect ranking is the worst

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So you want to add Dougie Hamilton to Boston's list then?

Binnington to St. Louis'?

Why not really spread things out and go back to to 2010, add Ferland (who already appears on the list for calgary) and add Seguin to the bruins, Tarasenko and Schwartz to the Blues, Jeff Skinner, Justin Faulk and Feddy Andersen to the canes? Kuznetsov and Grubauer to Washington?

Sure. If you are going by Pronman being the guru on this, the Caps are #30 in the prospect list, Bruins are #29. Would be interesting to see how high up the other two teams show. This is the nature of the business. The more successful the teams are, and they rely on youth, the more likely their prospect pool is a bit barren.

This still ignores the fact that Dube, Valimaki and Kylington should still be considered prospects as they haven't really graduated full-time.

[agulati]

Darren Haynes, just last week, posted an article on The Athletic where he had Valimaki (1st), Dube (2nd) and Kylington (4th) in his Top 20 prospects list for the Calgary Flames.

Summer edition of the Flames top 20 prospects

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by agulati

Baertschi as well.

I didn't include Baertschi because he played NHL games prior to 6 years ago. You could argue that he didn't actually graduate until the time period in question, but you have to pick some guidelines and stick with them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But Calgary is doing this as a non playoff, rebuilding roster. They SHOULD be graduating more players as the team has had lots of spots to fill.

Since the 2012 draft they've won a combined 5 playoff games.

The Blues have won the cup and been to the 3rd round
The Bruins have lost in the final twice
The Caps have won the cup and missed the playoffs 1 time

The Hurricanes have been in a similar situation as the Flames and have drafted better and their ownership is an unmitigated disaster.

It's really great that the Flames sold hard for a couple of years and drafted the bulk of their graduating class in a couple of years. It's not great that they have since sold most of their picks just to get their heads above water.

The examples were chosen by you. And way to keep moving them goalposts!

Compare some other rebuilding teams then, if that's where you want to take the argument. The Oilers, as a quick example, who have drafted ahead of the Flames pretty much every year for the last 15 years, and therefore should have a better list, have graduated a lot of players (they have the quantity covered), but after 4 or 5 guys, it's complete garbage (the quality lacks significantly).

My sense, after quickly glancing across the league, was that the Flames were probably in the top 5 for both quantity and quality over that period - and that would seem to be the case. Teams that graduate the most talent - both in quality and quantity - are probably going to have the most depleted reserves. Shocking, I know.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I didn't include Baertschi because he played NHL games prior to 6 years ago. You could argue that he didn't actually graduate until the time period in question, but you have to pick some guidelines and stick with them.

My post was on the basis of him not having fully graduated to the NHL at that point, but that is fair.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I didn't include Baertschi because he played NHL games prior to 6 years ago. You could argue that he didn't actually graduate until the time period in question, but you have to pick some guidelines and stick with them.

So we're not saying it's the 2012-2018 draft period, it's just players that have made a full time roster spot over that span?

The list comparables look even uglier.

St. Louis:

Bishop
Bera
Lehtera
Allen
Edmundson
Tarasenko
Schwartz
Carrier
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Thompson (resulted in O'Reilly)
Thomas
Parayko
Blais
Schmaltz
Lindbohm


Carolina:

Doumoulin
Andersen
Rask
Svechnikov
Hanifin
Aho
Fleury
Foegele
Wallmark
Lindholm
Pesce
Di Giuseppe?
McGinn
Slavin


Washington:

Kuznetsov
Grubauer
Holtby?
Vrana
Burakovsky
Bowey
Sanford
Forsberg
Wilson
Stephenson
Djoos
Carrick


Bruins:

Hamilton
Spooner
McAvoy
DeBrusk
Carlo
Pastrnak
Donato
Heinen
Bjork
Subban
Grzelcyk
Benning
Forsbacka-Karlsson


Calgary:

Gaudreau
Monahan
Ferland
Tkachuk
Bennett
Jankowski
Mangiapane
Dube
Hathaway
Valimaki
Andersson
Kylington
Kulak
Rittich
Granlund
Brassoit

Aside from the Hurricanes you could argue 3 of these teams have been going for it the majority of the last decade, with Washington and the Bruins being contenders for the last decade often pushing in chips to put them over the top.

The point I am making is that yes it's no surprise the flames have a bad prospect ranking pool because they have spent so many futures like draft picks and a prospect like Fox. However, unlike teams that have been contenders, Calgary has just 5 playoff wins since Tre took over the team. Which means Calgary has been spending futures like a contending team does, but is doing it just to make the playoffs.

As good as the drafting has been for the last 5 years, it's not enough to make up for a deficit of picks.

Graduating kulak onto the roster is great. Losing him for basically nothing sort of negates that. It's the basis for Wilson's article about miscalculating on Kulak and it's one of the points of Pronman's ranking.

You can't out-draft not having picks. In 2018 Washington won the cup and then drafted 4 times in the first 3 rounds of the draft. In 2018 the Flames missed the playoffs and made 0 picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft. A year after, the Caps made just 4 total picks in the draft, but picked 3 times in the first 3 rounds. The Flames made only one more pick than Washington despite the Capitals having just won the cup, and only picked twice in the first 3 rounds.

To be true contenders, the bleeding has to stop.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You can't out-draft not having picks. In 2018 Washington won the cup and then drafted 4 times in the first 3 rounds of the draft. In 2018 the Flames missed the playoffs and made 0 picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft. A year after, the Caps made just 4 total picks in the draft, but picked 3 times in the first 3 rounds. The Flames made only one more pick than Washington despite the Capitals having just won the cup, and only picked twice in the first 3 rounds.

To be true contenders, the bleeding has to stop.

That is very fair. You can only draft well, if you have the picks to draft with. In addition to that, they need to (and appear to already) put emphasis on College and European young free agents. Rittich came to us in that way.

[TheOnlyBilko]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

The headline should be "Flames have #31-ranked farm system in NHL, yet have 2nd best team in NHL".

Kinda hard to say Calgary has the 2nd best team when we got bounced from the playoffs in the 1st round in 5 games.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheOnlyBilko

Kinda hard to say Calgary has the 2nd best team when we got bounced from the playoffs in the 1st round in 5 games.

Breaking news: Tampa is not the best team in the NHL

they got swept, worst playoff team by your logic