COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[Fuzz]

If only we were smart like Portugal.

[DFO]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If only we were smart like Portugal.

Fewer people glued to toxic social media?

[memphusk]

Not sure if this has been asked yet but has anyone here received a third shot to travel and know if the effectiveness rises? I'm a cocktail right now. Az/Moderna.

[TorqueDog]

Getting a booster will improve outcomes by design. If you’ve got a mix, you can register on Alberta Health for your second Moderna now. A few friends of ours with mixed doses for their first two got their third shots to match their second.

I’m at the six month mark from when I got my second shot as of November, so hopefully the province changes to allowing boosters six months after your most recent shot instead of doing this stupid age group schedule again. It made sense when vaccines were in short supply and high demand. But now it should be contingent on time from last dose.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes, I remember that as well.

Interestingly enough, had they followed the Danish strategy they would have saved a lot off lives, however at some point we need to factor in the cost of the lockdown.



https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95699-9

Call me crazy but I doubt there was a tremendous 'cost of lockdown' difference between Denmark and Sweden. But open to be proven wrong.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I wonder if Moderna is just too strong a dose? Pfizer's 5-11 year old dose is 1/3rd as strong as the adult dose. Moderna's normal dose 3x as strong as Pfizer's. Too much?

I think its possible. Moderna also seems to be having better long term results that Pfizer so its a trade off.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Call me crazy but I doubt there was a tremendous 'cost of lockdown' difference between Denmark and Sweden. But open to be proven wrong.

Economically, there wasn't really any difference among Scandinavian countries. And in terms of mental health, Sweden likely experienced the worst effects among those countries. There was a study just released about the increases in depression by country:

Spoiler!

and in anxiety disorders:

Spoiler!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...143-7/fulltext

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Call me crazy but I doubt there was a tremendous 'cost of lockdown' difference between Denmark and Sweden. But open to be proven wrong.

There likely was a pretty big difference at first. But I was chatting with a friend recently and I said (more in the provincial context than global) that in the grand scheme of things, we all pay somehow. It's just whether it's a prepay or a pay later situation.

I bet Sweden spent way less at first for their cost of lock down. But as of right now, the mental health, hospital etc. costs have caught up with those savings and perhaps might be costing them more than those savings.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Aw look at poor Australia, we should save them from their overbearing situation!

[TorqueDog]

New Zealand just sitting cool as a cucumber over there.

[FireFly]

All these new reports out about the waning effectiveness of vaccines has prompted my husband to tell me he's waiting for his second dose. He just got his first in September and is eligible for his second as of Thursday but wants to wait until December-ish to get it. Sure. I guess I'll take myself out for dinner then.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FireFly

All these new reports out about the waning effectiveness of vaccines has prompted my husband to tell me he's waiting for his second dose. He just got his first in September and is eligible for his second as of Thursday but wants to wait until December-ish to get it. Sure. I guess I'll take myself out for dinner then.

Didn't Canada space out the 2 shots and found it to be more beneficial?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Azure

Didn't Canada space out the 2 shots and found it to be more beneficial?

This is what truly shows the idiocy of these people who have been holding out or have been vaccine hesitant. How do you go from being unworried about getting the shot at all to suddenly wanting to wait 40 days (or more!) between doses for maximum protection?

There's no reason to delay a second dose at this point when the result may be death or severe infection or the inability to live a normal life. I really hope people who waited until September are now not doing this in droves. The stupidity of some is just completely incomprehensible. Just get your 2 doses and stop screwing everyone around.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

This is what truly shows the idiocy of these people who have been holding out or have been vaccine hesitant. How do you go from being unworried about getting the shot at all to suddenly wanting to wait 40 days (or more!) between doses for maximum protection?

There's no reason to delay a second dose at this point when the result may be death or severe infection or the inability to live a normal life. I really hope people who waited until September are now not doing this in droves. The stupidity of some is just completely incomprehensible. Just get your 2 doses and stop screwing everyone around.

I think this comes from a position for a lot of people of wanting to try and get this all sorted out in a 2 shot and I am done mentality. I don't know the specifics of the person in the post above but a lot of people I know are comfortable with getting the 2 shots and than being done with Covid and vaccines, right or wrong.

Some other people are completely giddy about getting vaxxed every year, I have friends who are healthy and have zero need or medical requirement for a 3rd shot and are already looking forward to another 4th shot in early 2022.

If evidence shows that you can get a higher level of protection and immunity boost from waiting and the risk of infection is low (depending on location) than I assume your protection from the dosing gap will have a longer runway.

I may be wrong but that is my interpretation of things.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FireFly

All these new reports out about the waning effectiveness of vaccines has prompted my husband to tell me he's waiting for his second dose. He just got his first in September and is eligible for his second as of Thursday but wants to wait until December-ish to get it. Sure. I guess I'll take myself out for dinner then.

I could be wrong on this, but I think a single dose is less effective than the drop in protection they are seeing after 2 doses. So he's choosing to remain poorly protected in the short term, to maybe extend his drop in protection for the log term? A future where we may all get boosters anyway? Feels like a poor choice.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

New Zealand just sitting cool as a cucumber over there.

I have family in New Zealand and them sitting at full rugby stadiums wearing no masks while our sports were played in empty stadiums was quite jarring. They had a couple of lockdowns, but outside of that it was life as normal there.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I could be wrong on this, but I think a single dose is less effective than the drop in protection they are seeing after 2 doses. So he's choosing to remain poorly protected in the short term, to maybe extend his drop in protection for the log term? A future where we may all get boosters anyway? Feels like a poor choice.

To be fair to my husband, he was injured by the administration of the vaccination in September. Not the vaccine itself mind you, but the pharmacist hit a tendon or something because he has only just stopped complaining about the pain in his arm. I think he's afraid of getting injured again as he works a physically demanding job and it's really sucked for the last 3 weeks. I think he wanted to wait for December when he knows he'll get time off around Christmas instead of risking another injury and still having to go to work.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

To be fair to my husband, he was injured by the administration of the vaccination in September. Not the vaccine itself mind you, but the pharmacist hit a tendon or something because he has only just stopped complaining about the pain in his arm. I think he's afraid of getting injured again as he works a physically demanding job and it's really sucked for the last 3 weeks. I think he wanted to wait for December when he knows he'll get time off around Christmas instead of risking another injury and still having to go to work.

That’s likely a rare occurrence and extremely unlikely to be repeated, especially if he cautions the person administrating the vaccination.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

New Zealand just sitting cool as a cucumber over there.

If you go by death rate, they have probably done much better than us, but their vaccination rates are a full 20% behind ours. They also live on an island.

They just recently came out of a level 4 lockdown which includes a lot of businesses that we considered essential and allowed to operate. I have friends there that are completely double vaxxed and their business is being torn apart by the lockdowns.

They are now mandating vaccinations for teachers & health care workers even though a high percentage of them have not been voluntarily vaccinated, which is going to cause a lot of turmoil. For a country where everyone kept saying has people who are 'handling it the right way', the low vaccination rate doesn't exactly make it seem that is actually the case.

Overall their restrictions and lockdowns have been much worse.

At the end of the day the countries that handled it properly are those that got vaccination rates high fast without needing mandates, plus were able to not completely blow up the economy, while still using restrictions to slow spread. Canada & the Liberals, and most provinces have done very well with this. Some of our provinces did very well, some did well at some times, and completely shat the bed at other times.

I really don't want to toot Manitoba's horn, but we are still not dealing with any kind of serious mandate for workers, and we have super high rates in high population areas. I'm sure other provinces are probably similar.

When the mandates have been used, they are either done by private companies, or via restrictions to recreational activities. To me that is a citizenry & country that is handling things the right way.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you go by death rate, they have probably done much better than us, but their vaccination rates are a full 20% behind ours. They also live on an island.

They just recently came out of a level 4 lockdown which includes a lot of businesses that we considered essential and allowed to operate. I have friends there that are completely double vaxxed and their business is being torn apart by the lockdowns.

They are now mandating vaccinations for teachers & health care workers even though a high percentage of them have not been voluntarily vaccinated, which is going to cause a lot of turmoil. For a country where everyone kept saying has people who are 'handling it the right way', the low vaccination rate doesn't exactly make it seem that is actually the case.

Overall their restrictions and lockdowns have been much worse.

At the end of the day the countries that handled it properly are those that got vaccination rates high fast without needing mandates, plus were able to not completely blow up the economy, while still using restrictions to slow spread. Canada & the Liberals, and most provinces have done very well with this. Some of our provinces did very well, some did well at some times, and completely shat the bed at other times.

I really don't want to toot Manitoba's horn, but we are still not dealing with any kind of serious mandate for workers, and we have super high rates in high population areas. I'm sure other provinces are probably similar.

When the mandates have been used, they are either done by private companies, or via restrictions to recreational activities. To me that is a citizenry & country that is handling things the right way.

Death rate, impact on the healthcare system, economic impact... there are a lot of things one could go by that show NZ in very favourable light. They've done well. They had some tough lockdowns, but they also had extended periods of being absolutely free and clear, living as normal.

Vaccine supply has been an issue, but seems to be resolved now. They've fully vaccinated nearly 40% of the population in the last two months, and are at 80% of eligible with one dose (just 6% behind Canada), 57% with two. In terms of availability, they are roughly 4 months behind Canada, so their numbers are good, given that fact. The percentage of double vaccinated will likely meet ours in a matter of weeks.

As we've seen across the globe, vaccine supply is a difficult thing to manage. Some countries did very well securing it (Canada, the US, the UK, Russia, China) and other countries like Australia and New Zealand struggled. Does it have an effect on their overall handling of the pandemic? Of course. But they are also issues that can be evaluated separately, and outside of the vaccine rollout there is no ground to stand on in saying New Zealand was anything but fantastic in their handling of the pandemic to that point. And honestly, their vaccine rollout, even with the delay, does not change that fact all that much.

I know the crowd who have been anti-lockdown and never seen the need for lockdowns won't have their minds changed now, but there's no denying their effectiveness and overall benefit to a country dealing with COVID (absent of high vaccination rates). COVID-zero was the best approach worldwide.