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Old 01-13-2016, 03:06 PM   #101
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Wow, you sound angry....I was just trying to educate myself how the NDP has ruined this province in such short time.

1. Minimum wage went up by $1 to $11.20. Rest of the nation is between $10.30 and $12.50
2. Corporate tax from lowest in the country to middle of the pack. At 12% I believe it is still lower than Klein worked with.
3. Royalty review? No, the few weeks of delay did not ruin Alberta. We don't even know the results.
Oookay, and we're done here.

You dont understand the the wide-ranging implications of the Royalty review stemming from the 'few weeks delay' nor do you understand the economic results of raising taxes when revenue is down.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:24 PM   #102
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Oookay, and we're done here.

You dont understand the the wide-ranging implications of the Royalty review stemming from the 'few weeks delay' nor do you understand the economic results of raising taxes when revenue is down.
It's called a difference of opinions..some believe in trickle down economics and some don't. Some buy in to the fear that O&G companies will pack up and leave, others will believe that they will stay where the Oil is.
Just different trains of thought. Learn to accept that.

You are not very good at explaining your position. Rude and ignorant really...so yes, we are done here.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:45 PM   #103
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We'll have no trouble getting a burger and fries so we'll have that going for us at least. Presuming of course that we can afford it.
Just have to use your employee discount since there won't be any O&G jobs to be had.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:46 PM   #104
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Some buy in to the fear that O&G companies will pack up and leave, others will believe that they will stay where the Oil is.
Just different trains of thought. Learn to accept that.
Companies go where they can make money. When you start kicking an industry while it is being decimated by outside forces don't be surprised if they take their investment dollars and go somewhere else. It's not like we have oil that is cheap to produce or refine, we were probably already one of the highest cost places in the world to produce (I'm sure someone has that info here). You asked people to give you reasons why the NDP are an economic disaster, then when people start listing reasons you add them to your list with your own dismissive remarks and then wonder why people don't want to talk to you.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:51 PM   #105
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It's called a difference of opinions..some believe in trickle down economics and some don't. Some buy in to the fear that O&G companies will pack up and leave, others will believe that they will stay where the Oil is.
Just different trains of thought. Learn to accept that.

You are not very good at explaining your position. Rude and ignorant really...so yes, we are done here.
The several week delay in the royalty review isn't the problem.
The problem is that when commodity prices are coming down daily, and no one knows if/when we'll see a recovery, starting a royalty review is a terrible idea.

Right now there are enough variables that make investing in Oil and Gas risky in any jurisdiction. To add another level of uncertainly, and then to delay it not once, but twice, is adding unnecessary risk at a time when you should be offering stability in an effort to slow the bleeding.

I can tell you first hand that companies are in fact delaying decision on capital in Alberta, which means they are spending it elsewhere in the meantime. That's capital/jobs that would have been mighty useful the over the last year.

It's not a difference of opinion, it's a fact that what the NDP has done has hindered capital allocation in the province. The extent of it is pretty difficult to quantify exactly, but the fact is that NDP policy has directly contributed to worsening an already difficult situation.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:59 PM   #106
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Companies go where they can make money. When you start kicking an industry while it is being decimated by outside forces don't be surprised if they take their investment dollars and go somewhere else. It's not like we have oil that is cheap to produce or refine, we were probably already one of the highest cost places in the world to produce (I'm sure someone has that info here). You asked people to give you reasons why the NDP are an economic disaster, then when people start listing reasons you add them to your list with your own dismissive remarks and then wonder why people don't want to talk to you.
Well, based on the NDP hate on here I expected a long list of evil economic changes. So far all we got is a big bunch of nothing other than fear driven assumptions.
Our corporate taxes are competitive....the old 10% tax would not stop companies from withdrawing investments in O&G. I believe that the super low oil prices is the culprit, not a tax increase. And besides, who left and where did they go? It's not like oil is everywhere...

So again, is there anything else? Because this is not that strong of an argument that the NDP has done serious damage here. They might in time, but I really think that the general whining is pre-mature and unsubstantiated.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:08 PM   #107
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The several week delay in the royalty review isn't the problem.
The problem is that when commodity prices are coming down daily, and no one knows if/when we'll see a recovery, starting a royalty review is a terrible idea.

Right now there are enough variables that make investing in Oil and Gas risky in any jurisdiction. To add another level of uncertainly, and then to delay it not once, but twice, is adding unnecessary risk at a time when you should be offering stability in an effort to slow the bleeding.

I can tell you first hand that companies are in fact delaying decision on capital in Alberta, which means they are spending it elsewhere in the meantime. That's capital/jobs that would have been mighty useful the over the last year.

It's not a difference of opinion, it's a fact that what the NDP has done has hindered capital allocation in the province. The extent of it is pretty difficult to quantify exactly, but the fact is that NDP policy has directly contributed to worsening an already difficult situation.
Problem is, this is Alberta and people have no trust in any government other that the PCs. A review doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's likely that nothing changes.

And really, the uncertainty is the reason for capital withdrawal? The $30 WTI has 10 fold the impact. Just trying to keep things in perspective. In no way am I suggesting that the delays are a good thing.Or that the NDP are not gonna mess up etc. But they are not the reason why there is capital withdrawal right now. These decisions are not being made on a whim...
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:15 PM   #108
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I can tell you first hand that companies are in fact delaying decision on capital in Alberta, which means they are spending it elsewhere in the meantime. That's capital/jobs that would have been mighty useful the over the last year.
Can you say with any certainty that the delayed decisions would have actually been invested into Alberta if there had been no royalty review, or would they have just decided a lot more quickly not to do it?
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:17 PM   #109
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Problem is, this is Alberta and people have no trust in any government other that the PCs. A review doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's likely that nothing changes.

And really, the uncertainty is the reason for capital withdrawal? The $30 WTI has 10 fold the impact. Just trying to keep things in perspective. In no way am I suggesting that the delays are a good thing.Or that the NDP are not gonna mess up etc. But they are not the reason why there is capital withdrawal right now. These decisions are not being made on a whim...
Political uncertainty, including the pending royalty review, has absolutely had a major impact on decision-making. US investors have no reason to invest here anymore and they are pulling capital and cancelling projects. Why would they deal with the market uncertainty and the political uncertainty we have with this review? Especially when they have a stable and supportive framework, and cheaper oil. They have their own industry down there that has the market uncertainty but not nearly as much other risk as up here.

You're right decisions aren't made on a whim. When companies are making capex strategy for the next year, the next 3 years, 5 years....and they don't know what the royalty framework is going to look like, they are deciding to be conservative and wait/go elsewhere.

So yes, the NDP really did #### this up and it's mostly the timing (so far) that the NDP has screwed up. They should have waited for markets to stabilize, instead of "piling on". It has had a huge impact.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:19 PM   #110
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...%3DbVlWShlyWwc

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The B.C. Supreme court has ruled that the province "has breached the honour of the Crown by failing to consult" with the Gitga'at and other Coastal First Nations on the Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline.

In 2014, the federal government approved the controversial pipeline that would bring Alberta oil to B.C.'s north coast.

It didn't have to pass a provincial environmental assessment, because of a streamlined process that the B.C. Liberals said in 2010 would reduce "byzantine bureaucratic practices."
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:29 PM   #111
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The crown had honor at some point in regard to treatment of natives?
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:32 PM   #112
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Brutal

I was thinking about this today, and it goes a little off of the board for this thread. But this is suddenly a country with no economic engine

The Maritines are struggling, Quebec is always looking for a handout. Ontario is reliant on manufacturing but even with the low dollar that's a fools game.

Manitoba really has nothing, Sask and Alberta are both going to struggle badly, and BC is pretty much worthless.

At some point we're going to have pretty much all of the provinces requiring federal bail outs because they're all going to be running mass deficits.

Suddenly out of nowhere, this country is becoming a collection of welfare states.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:35 PM   #113
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Remember when were making fun of the Greeks?
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:36 PM   #114
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I think collectively since we're not going to be able to get what Oil that we drill out for export through pipelines, that we should sit back on our collective provincial couch, wait for our wellfare checks and monthly shipments of government cheese.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:38 PM   #115
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That's a bit negative. This summary report(RBC) shows past and forecast GDP and it doesn't look all that bad:
http://www.rbc.com/economics/economi...st-dec2015.pdf
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:41 PM   #116
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The crown had honor at some point in regard to treatment of natives?
Ha, that was my first thought as well.

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Brutal

I was thinking about this today, and it goes a little off of the board for this thread. But this is suddenly a country with no economic engine

The Maritines are struggling, Quebec is always looking for a handout. Ontario is reliant on manufacturing but even with the low dollar that's a fools game.

Manitoba really has nothing, Sask and Alberta are both going to struggle badly, and BC is pretty much worthless.

At some point we're going to have pretty much all of the provinces requiring federal bail outs because they're all going to be running mass deficits.

Suddenly out of nowhere, this country is becoming a collection of welfare states.
I mean at least some of that has to be laid at the feet of the myopic Harper governments.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:44 PM   #117
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Our corporate taxes are competitive....the old 10% tax would not stop companies from withdrawing investments in O&G. I believe that the super low oil prices is the culprit, not a tax increase. And besides, who left and where did they go?
Again, the industry is already on it's knees and we already have very high production costs. Now you are adding in tax increases, royalty uncertaintly, higher wage costs, carbon taxes and a government that is not friendly at all to our major industry. Add into that ministers who have no clue how business works and senior party members from the federal party out East that are philosophically opposed oil development and pipelines.

Now, keeping all of that in mind, you have 20Bil to invest into the industry, do you do it here or in Saskatchewan? or in the US?

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It's not like oil is everywhere....
Are you serious?
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:45 PM   #118
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Suddenly out of nowhere, this country is becoming a collection of welfare states.
Regional interests have taken priority over national interests for far far too long.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:45 PM   #119
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Oookay, and we're done here.

You dont understand the the wide-ranging implications of the Royalty review stemming from the 'few weeks delay' nor do you understand the economic results of raising taxes when revenue is down.
Nobody said NDP partisans actually understand how the real world works.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:46 PM   #120
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Ha, that was my first thought as well.



I mean at least some of that has to be laid at the feet of the myopic Harper governments.
I'm not arguing that but you also have to lay the blame at some incredibly incompetent provincial governments.

Economic factors from outside of the borders.

Provincial GDP is part of the picture, but how many governments are doing business from a mass deficit point of view. If you have one or two engine provinces you can get away with this, but you can't if all of the provinces are bleeding at the same time.
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