New study puts a price tag on train or bus between Banff and Calgary

[Boreal]

https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2019...d-calgary.html

The study considered both rail and coach options, including the possibility of using the Banff train station currently owned by Jan and Adam Waterous of Liricon Capital. It concluded that year-round rail service would cost between $660 million and $680 million to implement, with operating costs of $13.4 million to $14.3 million per year.

Year-round bus service would cost between $8.1 million and $19.6 million to implement, and would cost $4.5 million to $5.8 million per year.

The study suggested “complementary strategies” to reduce congestion in the area, including enhancing transit infrastructure in the Bow Valley.

Jan and Adam Waterous of Liricon Capital, the leaseholder of the Banff train station, told CBC today they have secured close to $700 million in funding for the project. Passenger train service to Banff ceased in 1990 when Via Rail stopped its southern passenger service.

'It's not if, it's when': Feasibility study has Banff train station leaseholder on edge of her seat

"We believe so strongly that this would be good for all of the communities and all of our visitors to the national park. It's a very challenging and complicated project from a funding and administration perspective. Huge obstacles for CP Rail to even consider this. But we wouldn't be investing all of our time if we didn't think it was something that was very important for all of our communities, including Banff National Park."

She says that close to $700 million in funding, mostly private, is in place for the most part, but there is still lots of work to do.

A train or year-round bus from Calgary to Banff would be feasible but need subsidies: study

A joint study by Bow Valley municipalities has determined that year-round bus or passenger rail service between Calgary and Banff National Park is feasible, as long as other levels of government contribute money.

The study, commissioned by Banff, Canmore, Cochrane, Improvement District 9 and Calgary, examined ways to reduce private vehicle congestion to and from, and within, the park.

"With more than 50 per cent of day visitors to Banff National Park coming from the Calgary region, mass transit is an obvious way to reduce the growing impacts of vehicle traffic," said Dave Schebek, chair of Improvement District 9, based in Lake Louise, in a news release.

[Harry Lime]

When the possibility of this was first mentioned, I began to wonder about whether new track would have to be laid for a passenger service.

Could this finally be the opportunity to move the tracks out of downtown Cochrane, and south closer to the transcanada?

CP has a number of crossing upgrades that need financing in the next 5 to 10 years through Cochrane.

[GGG]

Is anyone using the green trip funded Banff bus service last year from On-it? $10 each way and lots of times leaving from downtown or crowfoot station. It is supposed to start up again in the summer.

Until the bus is viable at a low cost not a cent of public money should be put into a train.

[Fuzz]

Given the cost difference, I think they should go with a bus service, until it becomes busy enough to justify train service. I'm OK with a bit of subsidy, because a bus can take 20 cars off the road(or more) which reduces need for road service and delays needs for more lanes. The Town of Banff, Parks and the province should pay the subsidy, as they would all benefit through reduced costs elsewhere. Probably the Town of Banff the most, as excess vehicles are a major problem and cost for them.

[Northendzone]

i had to laugh a bit at this "A joint study by Bow Valley municipalities has determined that year-round bus or passenger rail service between Calgary and Banff National Park is feasible, as long as other levels of government contribute money."

anything is feasible using this funding methodology.

just as an aside, would the project be mroe or less if SNC.Lavalin was involved?

anyways, while i think this is a cool idea, i'd like to understand more about how they think this would work:
- the train station is banff is a ways from anytghing, so bus/taxi/uber infrastructure in banff would need to be upgraded
- so you are in banff and want to go hiking somehwere outside of the town, how do you get there
- is there room to transport bikes, skiis, cklimbing gear etc
- how do i get home if i miss my train
- how do i know there will be room for me on the way home, do i buy a seat on the 4 pm train?

this would ease congetion in banff, but i think it would take a lot mroe time for the average person to get to banff itself

[GGG]

The other thing they should sue is implement parking fees at Johnston canyon, Lake Louise, Bow Lake, and ice fields to make in-park transit more frequent and free.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is anyone using the green trip funded Banff bus service last year from On-it? $10 each way and lots of times leaving from downtown or crowfoot station. It is supposed to start up again in the summer.

Until the bus is viable at a low cost not a cent of public money should be put into a train.

i don't believe it has ever been funded by the alberta government green trip money.

This year it will funded by Bow valley transit Commission

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by GGG

The other thing they should sue is implement parking fees at Johnston canyon, Lake Louise, Bow Lake, and ice fields to make in-park transit more frequent and free.

At least lake Louise has shuttle busses running from the overflow lot up to the lake. But more transit option within the park would be worth investigating.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

At least lake Louise has shuttle busses running from the overflow lot up to the lake. But more transit option within the park would be worth investigating.

They have transit within the park up to lake Louise. It is expensive and infrequent but they have service to lake minnieanka and Johnston Canyon and LL. It is not sufficient to take cars or the road.

[agulati]

I am quite intrigued by the possibility of train travel between Calgary/Canmore/Banff. There have to obviously be other plans such as a more frequent bus route that takes people to locations such as Johnston Canyon/Lake Louise/Sunshine etc.

Driving to the mountains at times has become unbearable due to the traffic and lack of parking. This might even bring in more visitor/tourist dollars due to people going more frequently for meals/bars etc. without having to worry about driving.

I would think it would be more like the regular train systems of tickets having to be purchased to specific time slots and seats as opposed to just general travel tickets.

[para transit fellow]

http://roamtransit.com/services/future-services/

Route 8X

- Express service between Banff and Lake Louise via the Trans Canada

Route 8S

- Scenic service between Banff and Lake Louise via the Banff Parkway

Route 9

- Direct service between Banff and Johnston Canyon via the Banff Parkway

[1991 Canadian]

Unless I am missing something, this train solves the least pressing issue for congestion in Banff, the highway drive between Calgary and Banff. Even at the peak of summer I find the drive relatively free moving.

The bigger issues are a lack of parking, overwhelming amount of people and a lack of tourism infrastructure in Banff and area. A train doesn’t solve any of these issues. It will not displace individual vehicle traffic, it will only displace bus tour traffic between Calgary and Banff.

The problem is the congestion will just be shifted to the Banff train station. Even if you displace all the bus traffic between Banff and Calgary, you now have to get all these people from Banff to the various sites. You also need to get all these people from YYC to the Calgary train station (downtown?).

Don’t get wrong, if there is private money willing to front most of this project, I am all for it. If the tickets are cheap enough, I might even be tempted to use it. I just don’t see the value in it.

[cam_wmh]

~20 years ago, I and a few friends had Laidlaw seasons passes, while in school. We'd take the bus from Chinook Centre to any of Sunshine, Louise or Fortress.
It was the best. Drink late the night before, and sleep on the bus.

Re-build the train station by Chucktown, and have a lil shuttle up the hill and I could be game.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

Unless I am missing something, this train solves the least pressing issue for congestion in Banff, the highway drive between Calgary and Banff. Even at the peak of summer I find the drive relatively free moving.

The bigger issues are a lack of parking, overwhelming amount of people and a lack of tourism infrastructure in Banff and area. A train doesn’t solve any of these issues. It will not displace individual vehicle traffic, it will only displace bus tour traffic between Calgary and Banff.

The problem is the congestion will just be shifted to the Banff train station. Even if you displace all the bus traffic between Banff and Calgary, you now have to get all these people from Banff to the various sites. You also need to get all these people from YYC to the Calgary train station (downtown?).

Don’t get wrong, if there is private money willing to front most of this project, I am all for it. If the tickets are cheap enough, I might even be tempted to use it. I just don’t see the value in it.

keep talking sense like this and you'll have Jan and Adam Waterous of Liricon Capital slipping you envelopes full of cash to be quiet.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

Unless I am missing something, this train solves the least pressing issue for congestion in Banff, the highway drive between Calgary and Banff. Even at the peak of summer I find the drive relatively free moving.

The bigger issues are a lack of parking, overwhelming amount of people and a lack of tourism infrastructure in Banff and area. A train doesn’t solve any of these issues. It will not displace individual vehicle traffic, it will only displace bus tour traffic between Calgary and Banff.

The problem is the congestion will just be shifted to the Banff train station. Even if you displace all the bus traffic between Banff and Calgary, you now have to get all these people from Banff to the various sites. You also need to get all these people from YYC to the Calgary train station (downtown?).

Don’t get wrong, if there is private money willing to front most of this project, I am all for it. If the tickets are cheap enough, I might even be tempted to use it. I just don’t see the value in it.

Anecdotally last summer I drove the TCH 4 times. Once on the Monday of a long weekend, twice midweek, and once on a regular weekend. Every trip traffic came to a virtual standstill on #1 several times and traffic was backing up for kilometres. It's true, the biggest issue might be in Banff townsite itself but the highway is turning into a gong show as well. At least in my experience.

[Fuzz]

The Banff townsite transit and parks locations will take care of itself if you get mass transit arriving in the town.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

Anecdotally last summer I drove the TCH 4 times. Once on the Monday of a long weekend, twice midweek, and once on a regular weekend. Every trip traffic came to a virtual standstill on #1 several times and traffic was backing up for kilometres. It's true, the biggest issue might be in Banff townsite itself but the highway is turning into a gong show as well. At least in my experience.

Yah free moving isn't what I would say.

But again, a train or bus is going to take such a small amount of those cars off the road I can't see the value. No one who is camping/hiking/going to BC or invermere or wherever where a ton of these people are going will be taking a bus or train.

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

When the possibility of this was first mentioned, I began to wonder about whether new track would have to be laid for a passenger service.

Could this finally be the opportunity to move the tracks out of downtown Cochrane, and south closer to the transcanada?

CP has a number of crossing upgrades that need financing in the next 5 to 10 years through Cochrane.

I would say it is extremely unlikely that the tracks through Cochrane will be moved. It wouldn't make sense to move the tracks out of downtown Cochrane as the passenger train would probably make a stop there and they would want the station to be as centrally located (read: convenient) as possible.

I actually think that having a train between Calgary and Banff would be amazing. Having been over that stretch of track many times, I can say that it is a pretty scenic trip (except going past the garbage dump in Morley) and would probably be quite popular if priced appropriately. I do question the economics of it though, and there are certainly a lot of questions that would need to be answered before it could become a reality. Double tracking the CP line in order to allow passenger operations would be very costly, requiring major river crossings (bridges are expensive) at 4 locations, as well as some potentially complicated cutting and filling along the Bow River east of Cochrane. It would be cool to see it happen, but at this point I'll believe it when I see it.

[Amethyst]

I took the On-It bus a few times. Every time it was at least half full, and some times it was well more than that. I would love On-It to operate in the winter as well, because I would like to go out there in the winter as well, without having to worry about driving in the mountains in bad weather.

The first time I took it, there was a big event going on in Banff and I didn't want to worry about parking. It worked so well, that I tried it a few more times and enjoyed the chance to have some drinks without having to worry about it (I connected to On-It in Calgary via the c-train).

[powderjunkie]

I think one of the biggest questions here is autonomous vehicles...an investment of this size has a looooong payback period. You might be able to purchase a self-driving car by the time construction on this is complete (if not by the time it starts).

However, I am not convinced AV's are going to be the answer for high speed travel with variable conditions. If an AV computes the safe speed to be 60 kph on icy roads, it's a recipe for disaster when humans are still operating at 120kph...Even in ideal conditions, I wonder what the speed limit will be for AV's?


Not sure if any experts foresee this, but I've always imagined we might end up with two grids/systems:
1. a slower speed but higher efficiency open system in urban areas - reactive to a nearly infinite number of variables
2. a higher speed closed system for distance travel that focuses on reducing variables

All vehicles would operate in system 1, only AV's would be in system 2.

I imagine it might look a little bit like a toll highway in terms of entrances/exits, but they are also 'queue up' areas where you transition into the closed system. I program my destination as Banff, then put my feet up and relax. Over the next few minutes, the system physically links my vehicle with ~5-10 others going to the same destination, and then slots our caterpillar into a space, and merges us into the super highway, where get up to 200+kph.

As we approach the destination, our caterpillar merges off the system, slows down and breaks apart our caterpillar, leaving each user with their own vehicle to go wherever/whenever they'd like.

Obviously we're a long way from a personal vehicle being economical to operate at such speeds, but it can begin to make sense as you break it down between more users and achieve aerodynamic and frictional efficiencies.

We're probably an even longer way off from Calgary-Banff being a great candidate for this kind of thing. Then again, maybe the tourism demand (ie. lots of car rentals), relatively short distance without many land-use conflicts, and fact that this route isn't already served by rail makes it a good option for an early route (and/or Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton) - compared to super populated cities in the East where it's much harder to make a new ROW.


Even if it's not super-high speed, I'd be all over a special toll-highway if it lets my version 1.0 AV drive me to Lake Louise while I recline and snooze.


TLDR: I'm not keen on a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem.