The Legend of Sam Bennett

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, the fans here seem to feel they are smarter than management, so why not listen?

Did Bennett ever impress you as a top 6 centre during his first 3-4 years? The issue is that the coaches were trying to win. So none of them, not even Hartley, wanted to do it.

Well, they did a bang up job of that both in the short term and the long term, hey? They all coached themselves out of the NHL Head Coaching jobs.

If we're looking at Bennett impressing as a top 6 centre during his first 3-4 years, he would have had to play as a top-6 centre, and outside of VERY rare spot duty where he was being tossed around the line-up, he simply didn't get that opportunity for any extended period.

Hell, his only consitent stretch of playing centre with actual NHL-quality players came in the 19/20 playoffs alongside Lucic and Dube.

[FlamesAddiction]

On the bright side, if Bennett continues to light it up and especially if the Panthers go far in the playoffs with Bennett contributing, it could be the final straw for Treliving. There is no way the owners could ignore that and not consider it gross mismanagement.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Well, they did a bang up job of that both in the short term and the long term, hey? They all coached themselves out of the NHL Head Coaching jobs.

True. But i still think it’s farfetched to have expected any coach to do it, based on what had been shown. And before it’s said, the Florida thing is different - more like when the Flames tried various new guys on the top line to take advantage of adrenaline.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

On the bright side, if Bennett continues to light it up and especially if the Panthers go far in the playoffs with Bennett contributing, it could be the final straw for Treliving. There is no way the owners could ignore that and not consider it gross mismanagement.

Likely mainly gross coaching, but that’s on Tre too.


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[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

True. But i still think it’s farfetched to have expected any coach to do it, based on what had been shown. And before it’s said, the Florida thing is different - more like when the Flames tried various new guys on the top line to take advantage of adrenaline.

After his rookie season, they transition him to 3rd line centre and played him with Brouwer and various other anchors. So they really never ever gave him a chance - and that's not just on the coaches (although I still argue 13/23, 19/93, 11/67 should have been the tandems), that falls back to Treliving cycling in Brouwer and Neal over the years. It's a really rotten place to put your already deficient head coaches in. Just goes to show you can't spend that type of money on players that are below-NHL caliber. Whether it's coaching hires, horrendous free agent signings - the impact cascades through the entire team.

The most baffling thing to me was the treatment of Bennett this season though. After the playoffs he had, he comes into this season just gets tossed aside. Ridiculous. That comes back to the hiring of Geoff Ward though...just heinous work on that hire. I also don't understand it from Ward's perspective, because in my eyes part of the reason why Ward even got hired was because of his play-in round success which came because of the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line. I just don't understand how Ward wasn't coming into this season thinking that Bennett was one of "his guys".

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Did Bennett ever impress you as a top 6 centre during his first 3-4 years?

Yes, he did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes, he did.

You were in a tiny group, then. In fact, whenever he was put at centre, people complained that he was being broken in all wrong.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

After his rookie season, they transition him to 3rd line centre and played him with Brouwer and various other anchors. So they really never ever gave him a chance - and that's not just on the coaches (although I still argue 13/23, 19/93, 11/67 should have been the tandems), that falls back to Treliving cycling in Brouwer and Neal over the years. It's a really rotten place to put your already deficient head coaches in. Just goes to show you can't spend that type of money on players that are below-NHL caliber. Whether it's coaching hires, horrendous free agent signings - the impact cascades through the entire team.

The most baffling thing to me was the treatment of Bennett this season though. After the playoffs he had, he comes into this season just gets tossed aside. Ridiculous. That comes back to the hiring of Geoff Ward though...just heinous work on that hire. I also don't understand it from Ward's perspective, because in my eyes part of the reason why Ward even got hired was because of his play-in round success which came because of the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line. I just don't understand how Ward wasn't coming into this season thinking that Bennett was one of "his guys".

This season was odd, all right. The PO line should have been used (though I’m not as aware up by Bennett’s POs as a lot of people).

Use as a 3rd line C was blocked a lot by an equal attempt to use Jankowski as a 3rd line C. I’m not sure why they went Janko over Bennett, aside from maybe body type. I’d at least have given them both a look.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You were in a tiny group, then.

I didn't know there was a majority rule

In fact, whenever he was put at centre, people complained that he was being broken in all wrong.

To which I made this thread in rebuttal (Brevity isn't my strong suite so i've truncated a lot of my digressions):

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Something has nagged away at me for the last year and that's the fact that the Flames abandoned Bennett as a center and decided to make him a full time winger. The reason this is the case is because my eyes keep telling me that Bennett was not only a solid two-way center, but easily one of the three best on this roster (not including Lindholm, who obviously hasn't been here for long).


....


But let's set that aside for a moment and get to what I really want to talk about:

Sam Bennett's defensive play. To me, centers are most effective when they:

- support their defensemen below the hash marks, including the net front area
- support all four skaters by creating passing lanes for clean breakouts
- pressure the puck to help clog the neutral zone
- get the puck out of forechecking pressure without throwing it away

And my visual observation was always that Bennett did these things not just well, but especially well. He made it possible for the team to employ guys like Matt Bartkowski because he covered for their shortcomings in the defensive zone. None of these areas have much to do with offensive production. How can you ever use points to evaluate these things?

...

The problem the Flames ran into in 2017-18 was that the third line wasn't scoring. Brouwer had worn out his top nine opportunity, Versteeg gave the puck away in the offensive zone multiple times per game before he was finally shut down, Jagr's hands had left him behind, and Bennett's puck luck hit career lows.

...

Bennett's edges, puck skills, and general ability to dominate away from the puck - both physically and with positioning - were both limited on the wing

...

Finally, I want to remind everyone of how he was arguably our best 5 on 5 player in the 2016-17 playoffs. Treliving even said this in an interview. How can a player be a failed center if he's going head to head against a guy like Ryan Kesler successfully?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, the fans here seem to feel they are smarter than management, so why not listen?

Did Bennett ever impress you as a top 6 centre during his first 3-4 years? The issue is that the coaches were trying to win. So none of them, not even Hartley, wanted to do it.

I do not think I ever saw Bennett play as a second line center on the Flames. I do not think I would have been as reticent to try it as the Flames were though. Theoretically there is a reason you drafted the guy 4th overall. I cannot think of another forward picked in the top 5 who had less of an opportunity playing top 2 line minutes than Sam did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I do not think I ever saw Bennett play as a second line center on the Flames. I do not think I would have been as reticent to try it as the Flames were though. Theoretically there is a reason you drafted the guy 4th overall. I cannot think of another forward picked in the top 5 who had less of an opportunity playing top 2 line minutes than Sam did.

Sorry. - I was unclear. I meant “impress as someone who should be given top 2 C”. In other words, did his play ever say “ this guy is better than Monahan, Backlund, or Lindholm”. I get he wasn’t given the chance on those lines. I suppose he was expected to force his way up, like Monahan, Gaudreau, etc. On the other hand, Backlund pretty much started in a position to succeed IIRC.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I suppose he was expected to force his way up, like Monahan, Gaudreau, etc.

When did Monahan "force his way up"?

He was pretty awful as a rookie.

As a sophomore, Backlund and Stajan missed half the season while Bennett missed the whole season. And even then, most of that season, the Gaudreau-X-Hudler line was our best line, even though it was centered by guys like Granlund and Jooris at first. That Monahan outscored two guys who probably weren't NHL talents is not some major accomplishment.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The same could be said for Bennett as far as projecting to be a great player. It’s just the misery of his time in this incompetent organization that has people thinking otherwise. Bennett showed the potential he had in his rookie season, and after that the organization did what it did.

Hell, Bennett put up 8 points in 10 playoff games last year as a centre with Lucic and Dube. He proved he could perform at a high level at the most important time of the year in the most important position. This team then made no space for him and slammed him down the roster to start this season because they yet again doubled/tripled down the players that they always have (despite no success).

It’s just pure incompetence.

I actually think Bennett and Draisaitl had complete opposite styles. Bennett was more flash and razzle-dazzle. He liked going one on one and trying to deke through his opponent rather than protecting the puck and going around his opponent. Although he’s always had really strong edgework so he could dig deep into the ice and cut hard from the corner and to the net with power. Although I don’t think that specific element of his game ever translated on the rush.

Draisaitl on the other hand didn’t have as much flash in his game, I think he had softer hands, but he definitely didn’t go one on one deking through defensemen like Bennett who looks to do that on every rush. Draisaitl had more of a power game and he just looked very very heavy with the puck. Protecting, shielding especially on his backhand which I think is his bread and butter. His backhand pass is as good as most center’s forehand passes. The puck seemed to follow him a lot too, whereas with Bennett, not so much.

I do agree that his playoff performance was simply outstanding. Probably worth keeping him just for that alone. But with the team missing the playoffs and the expansion draft looming, a trade was necessary. I still believe that had Monahan been traded for Josh Anderson or some other top end winger last offseason, then Bennett would still be here. There would be space for him up the middle and a quality winger to slot next to him. If the Flames had bothered to even try for Toffoli as well, who knows, maybe Bennett’s career with the Flames changes completely. Alas, it never happened and there’s nothing we can do about it now.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Likely mainly gross coaching, but that’s on Tre too.


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He was starting to come around under Sutter though and if Bennett is to be taken at face value, he was willing to stay at that point. Ultimately, Treliving traded him for what might end up being a total fleecing.

I wasn't a big supporter of Bennett and I still maintain that he played like crap a lot of the time, but I can't deny that it is looking like an environmental issue at this point. Your GM needs to recognize that and it is looking like a total embarrassment at this point and something that undermines the organization. If Bennett continues what he is doing, Murray Edwards needs to address it IMO.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

True. But i still think it’s farfetched to have expected any coach to do it, based on what had been shown. And before it’s said, the Florida thing is different - more like when the Flames tried various new guys on the top line to take advantage of adrenaline.

Not sure if it is far fetched but. I think it is more, he had coaches who didn't know what they were looking for and how take advantage of Bennett's skillset. Hartley himself said you have to play star players when they are raw and get them using their skills even if they make mistake and put them back out there. He was talking about Johnny and Monahan and how he did this when he was coaching Colorado. The first thing coach Q did when they traded for Bennett was to start giving Bennett lots of ice time; So now Bennett could gain the confidence and start playing at the level he was drafted for. The coaches we had were unproven and inexperienced at different levels and that factored into Bennett's deployment. If we had a proper coach who knew what we had in Bennett there is no way he would have been left tolling the 3rd and 4th line coach after coach.

[delayedreflex]

I hope that Bennett's performance somehow raises the trade value of other Flames players. Perhaps other GM's could think that if Bennett could do so much better once free of the Flames, other players might as well and might pay a little more in a trade. Though that's probably just wishful thinking :P

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I doubt anyone was saying Draisaitl was going to be a great player around the time of January 4th 2015...not even Oilers fans.



You say this as if all players just magically fix their mobility with power skating classes.

You mean his rookie season? I mean, if we’re going to judge players based on their rookie season, I guess Joe Thornton’s career would’ve been a train wreck too.

That’s the thing about power forwards, sometimes they take more time to learn the NHL game. The thing that Draisaitl has always had is the ability to hold on to pucks and protect and shield it effectively. I like this element in centers and Monahan and Bennett do not have this trait. Draisaitl to his credit fixed his boots and it’s probably the main reason he’s launched himself into superstardom. Had his skating topped out as just adequate, then he’d probably be just a #1 center who can cycle and play a half court style game. But his skating improved so vastly that he’s also a major threat on the rush too and that’s made all the difference from elevating his game further.

[Reggie Dunlop]

How about that Heineman kid though?

Man, looking forward to seeing what he can do!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

When did Monahan "force his way up"?

He was pretty awful as a rookie.

As a sophomore, Backlund and Stajan missed half the season while Bennett missed the whole season. And even then, most of that season, the Gaudreau-X-Hudler line was our best line, even though it was centered by guys like Granlund and Jooris at first. That Monahan outscored two guys who probably weren't NHL talents is not some major accomplishment.

Monahan started as a 2nd-3rd line winger and worked his way up the lineup. But in what world was he awful as a rookie? I know it’s fashionable to dislike him but 22 goals as an 18-19 year old(4th for rookies, and 2/3 above him were quite a bit older)? Outscoring guys on the Flames may not be impressive, but he was also outscoring younger but more seasoned Cs like Kadri, or Schenn. It was one off of Spezza, Couture, Malkin, Anisimov, etc.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Not sure if it is far fetched but. I think it is more, he had coaches who didn't know what they were looking for and how take advantage of Bennett's skillset. Hartley himself said you have to play star players when they are raw and get them using their skills even if they make mistake and put them back out there. He was talking about Johnny and Monahan and how he did this when he was coaching Colorado. The first thing coach Q did when they traded for Bennett was to start giving Bennett lots of ice time; So now Bennett could gain the confidence and start playing at the level he was drafted for. The coaches we had were unproven and inexperienced at different levels and that factored into Bennett's deployment. If we had a proper coach who knew what we had in Bennett there is no way he would have been left tolling the 3rd and 4th line coach after coach.

Hartley also played Bennett on wing which was a huge debate here. He, like the others, never put him in Monahan or Backlund’s spot.

ETA: The unfortunate thing is, I think they were all trying to put Bennett with good players. I mean, Brouwer, Janko, Neal, Jagr - those guys were all supposed to be good. On paper they were the right style for him - big, physical linemates with hands.