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Old 03-30-2016, 11:09 PM   #41
druetetective
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I wonder if the Flames regret signing Kanzig.
I'm against signing mid round picks so soon after the draft. You ideally want as much time to evaluate as possible before offering up what is a limited resource. (ELC/Roster spot)
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Old 03-30-2016, 11:20 PM   #42
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I wonder if the Flames regret signing Kanzig.
I'm against signing mid round picks so soon after the draft. You ideally want as much time to evaluate as possible before offering up what is a limited resource. (ELC/Roster spot)
The organization would look bad if it wasted a 3rd. I mean, some could argue they already have wasted that 3rd, but I don't know if the Flames organization would make that argument just quit yet
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:19 AM   #43
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I think the Flames are desperate to upgrade the size of their defencemen. Keep in mind that Kanzig is not just a goon, but apparently a really high-IQ defencemen, but with low offensive acumen. Though all teams in the NHL are going hard after puck-moving types, I can't think of a team that doesn't have at least one more conservative stay-at-home type that is physical.

If Kanzig (or even Riley Bruce) pan out, then it means they replace Engelland internally. Both of those picks are fairly long-term projects, so who knows how they will pan out. I am waiting to see how Kanzig does after a full pro season before I am ready to say it was a bad pick. He could very well develop into a decent asset to have.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:57 AM   #44
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Who is Riley Bruce?
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:00 AM   #45
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Who is Riley Bruce?
The big defenceman we drafted in the 7th round just recently.
http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=772708
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:39 AM   #46
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I think the Flames are desperate to upgrade the size of their defencemen. Keep in mind that Kanzig is not just a goon, but apparently a really high-IQ defencemen, but with low offensive acumen. Though all teams in the NHL are going hard after puck-moving types, I can't think of a team that doesn't have at least one more conservative stay-at-home type that is physical.

If Kanzig (or even Riley Bruce) pan out, then it means they replace Engelland internally. Both of those picks are fairly long-term projects, so who knows how they will pan out. I am waiting to see how Kanzig does after a full pro season before I am ready to say it was a bad pick. He could very well develop into a decent asset to have.
Look at the junior performance of these NHL defensive guys. They pretty much all got some points. You need to be able to make a good first pass and not deal with the puck like its a hand grenade to play in the NHL.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:13 AM   #47
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The organization would look bad if it wasted a 3rd. I mean, some could argue they already have wasted that 3rd, but I don't know if the Flames organization would make that argument just quit yet
The last third rounder we didn't sign was Joey Leach iirc.

Other third rounders go unsigned. Yeah, you want to hit on all your picks. But to sign someone just because they were picked in the third round is foolish you only have 50 contract spots available and you have to make sure those 50 are legit nhlers or prospects, even if it means not signing someone you picked in the third round.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:35 AM   #48
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Look at the junior performance of these NHL defensive guys. They pretty much all got some points. You need to be able to make a good first pass and not deal with the puck like its a hand grenade to play in the NHL.
So I looked at the stats and Engelland's stats aren't better than Kanzigs's junior stats. I'll even add Regehr to the list for craps and giggles.

Kanzig 20 year old WHL season - 13g 6a
Engelland 20 year old WHL season - 3g 8a
Regehr 19 year old WHL season - 12g 20a

Kanzig may or may not be an NHL player in the long run, but at this point it's too early to tell and stats are a terrible indicator of whether or not someone will be an NHL player.

Kanzig's got the professional attitude down already so he has that going for him. I'm pretty sure he was one of the top fitness testers at Flames camp as an 18 year old.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:27 AM   #49
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So I looked at the stats and Engelland's stats aren't better than Kanzigs's junior stats. I'll even add Regehr to the list for craps and giggles.

Kanzig 20 year old WHL season - 13g 6a
Engelland 20 year old WHL season - 3g 8a
Regehr 19 year old WHL season - 12g 20a
Chara (turned 20 during the WHL season) 3g 19a

Kanzig may or may not be an NHL player in the long run, but at this point it's too early to tell and stats are a terrible indicator of whether or not someone will be an NHL player.

Kanzig's got the professional attitude down already so he has that going for him. I'm pretty sure he was one of the top fitness testers at Flames camp as an 18 year old.
added chara
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:18 AM   #50
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Look at the junior performance of these NHL defensive guys. They pretty much all got some points. You need to be able to make a good first pass and not deal with the puck like its a hand grenade to play in the NHL.
I agree about the first pass. Today's hockey requires almost all defensemen to be able to pass and skate. Brodie is a prime example of a late pick who never had a slapper, quick snap, or even a big body and crunch, yet Brodie is talked about often as being in the top 5 among defensemen, whereas Phaneuf - who's a big hit and slapper - is not talked about because he lacks finesse in his pass.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:19 AM   #51
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Phaneuf isn't talked about because he's dumb.
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:55 PM   #52
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Phaneuf isn't talked about because he's dumb.
WTF? What are you 5 years old?

Phaneuf didn't even screw over the Flames. He got traded away and was a valuable defenseman while he was here.
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:59 PM   #53
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WTF? What are you 5 years old?

Phaneuf didn't even screw over the Flames. He got traded away and was a valuable defenseman while he was here.
Wow....no one said he screwed over the Flames. The only thing said was his hockey IQ is terrible.

You may be the one acting like a 5 year old
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:05 PM   #54
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I would prefer Gilmour over Kanzig and Morrison
First - this post is not just directed at you - just your post is a good example of something I think about.

On a straight head-to-head comparison between Kanzig and Gilmour? I think most would agree that Gimour is a better defencemen right now than Kanzig - and may be in the future.

However, Kanzig is not a roadblock to Gilmour. Gilmour is an undersized puck-mover with good IQ - Flames just traded away an undersized puck-mover with good IQ in Russell.

Who is competing with Gilmour? In no particular order: Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Wotherspoon, Kulak, Culkin, Hickey, Kylington, Andersson, Rafikov, Nakladal and Jokipakka (though the last 2-3 are what I would mostly call 'hybrid' defencemen who play a more physical game at times).

Now, who is competing with Kanzig? Bruce, Ollas-Mattsson (maybe) and Engelland.

Now, I am assuming your issue is that you either think:
1) Kanzig won't make it
or
2) There is no need for a Kanzig-type of player

First point may be arbitrary - second point I would argue is a relative need organizationally.

As for Kanzig himself, he has a really high IQ according to Todd Button, and every coach I have heard speak about him (and Feaster/Weisbrod - but I take everything with a grain of salt when it comes from them). Lowry really liked him. He also has really good top-end speed - just needs to get better at that first step, but compensates well with his long reach and IQ.

He is just a prospect that IF he continues to develop and pans-out, then you have a guy who you can use to help against the big centers and forwards in the division. I loved Russell and think he was extremely underappreciated here, but even I knew the Flames would move on when you see him trying to compete on the boards. There aren't many big-bodies on defence of the physical type. Flames for sure would sign and retain there behemoth of one for as long as he continues to show improvement.

So, having Kanzig in the system is not a roadblock to Gilmour. In fact, if the Flames were full of Kanzig-like prospects, Gilmour would suddenly find himself much higher in the Flames' plans.

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Wow....no one said he screwed over the Flames. The only thing said was his hockey IQ is terrible.

You may be the one acting like a 5 year old
Yeah, this is exactly how I understood MMF's comment as well.

Phanuef has always been a hugely polarizing player. Why?

He is the poster-boy for when people say: "Great tools, no toolbox". In my opinion, Phaneuf has all the tools not just to be a #1 defencemen, but a top-end #1 at that. So why isn't he?

Let's see what he checks off:

Nice big shot from the point? Check
Good skating ability? check
Good passer? Check
Can skate his way out of trouble carrying the puck? Check
Can play a physical game? Check
Can defend well? Check

Probably more checks in there. IMO, he literally checks-off everything you want in a #1 defencemen.

So why do so many people say he sucks? Why do so many people within a fanbase love him, while others hate him?

People see the tools and see the moments when he puts those tools together and has a huge impact on the game and say: "Wow, Phaneuf is so damn good!"

Other people will see how he makes the silliest mistakes at the most inopportune times, over and over, that you don't expect a 6th defencemen to make.

He just doesn't put his tools together consistently enough, and his brain seemingly shuts-off. He has lapses of pure ineptness, coupled with moments of sheer brilliance.

This is what people are saying about Nurse early on in his career thus far as well - Nurse has all the tools you ever want in a #1 defencemen, but his constant lapses are so obvious. They are both very gifted, but very dumb defencemen.

Put them on sheltered roles with a very reliable defensive partner, and they will shine. Put them as 'the' guy on a pairing, and suddenly his warts start coming out. Give him more minutes and responsibilities, and you will see both sides of the coin - the brilliance and the seeming idiocy - become even more apparent.

Every defencemen can look bad - heck, you can find clips of Lidstrom getting schooled on youtube. It is how often these lapses happen, and how infrequently they happen especially under pressure, that makes a guy with great tools be a legitimate top-pairing defencemen.

Contrast that with Brodie. In my opinion, Brodie has less 'tools' than Phaneuf, but he has a titanium toolbox. Yes, he is a better skater, and a better passer. Phaneuf isn't bad at either one - plus he is physical and has that huge shot. Brodie blows Phaneuf out of the water because he has high IQ.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:10 PM   #55
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WTF? What are you 5 years old?

Phaneuf didn't even screw over the Flames. He got traded away and was a valuable defenseman while he was here.
Phaneuf is a low IQ hockey player. He's not very good because he thinks the game slowly and poorly. Stop being such a spaz.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:26 PM   #56
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Phaneuf's main problem today is that he can't skate anymore. When he peaked, he was way more mobile. Today he's just an ogre, it's kind of sad.

No one was ever willing to say he was any good because of the Leafs trade but he was pretty dominant there years 1-4
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:08 PM   #57
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Regarding Kanzig, it's definitely too soon to give up on the guy.

Even just looking at stats he's actually starting to score goals which is a good sign. When I saw him live last season he would rarely be stepping into the offensive zone let alone getting scoring chances.

He also came into training camp with the lowest body fat of any Flame, right next to Gio. For a 240lb beast of his stature that's an impressive feat and good indication that he's a very dedicated and hard worker.

Even if there's only a 5% chance he becomes anything like Chara, you keep that asset over a Gilmour type.

Cundari would be a comparable player to Gilmour and we all know how that turned out. Bigger chance he becomes a career AHLer, so hopefully he is offered an AHL contract. With the Flames in control of their ECHL team we can load up on these guys and not worry about having too many defensemen in the AHL.
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:32 PM   #58
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Damn keep coming to see the ATO ahl Stockton contract for John Gilmour... Keeping leaving reading about Bruce/Kanzig and what level of Engelland they can be. And Phaneuf...
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:41 PM   #59
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However, Kanzig is not a roadblock to Gilmour. Gilmour is an undersized puck-mover with good IQ - Flames just traded away an undersized puck-mover with good IQ in Russell.

Who is competing with Gilmour? In no particular order: Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Wotherspoon, Kulak, Culkin, Hickey, Kylington, Andersson, Rafikov, Nakladal and Jokipakka (though the last 2-3 are what I would mostly call 'hybrid' defencemen who play a more physical game at times).

Now, who is competing with Kanzig? Bruce, Ollas-Mattsson (maybe) and Engelland.

Now, I am assuming your issue is that you either think:
1) Kanzig won't make it
or
2) There is no need for a Kanzig-type of player

First point may be arbitrary - second point I would argue is a relative need organizationally.

As for Kanzig himself, he has a really high IQ according to Todd Button, and every coach I have heard speak about him (and Feaster/Weisbrod - but I take everything with a grain of salt when it comes from them). Lowry really liked him. He also has really good top-end speed - just needs to get better at that first step, but compensates well with his long reach and IQ.

He is just a prospect that IF he continues to develop and pans-out, then you have a guy who you can use to help against the big centers and forwards in the division. I loved Russell and think he was extremely underappreciated here, but even I knew the Flames would move on when you see him trying to compete on the boards. There aren't many big-bodies on defence of the physical type. Flames for sure would sign and retain there behemoth of one for as long as he continues to show improvement.

So, having Kanzig in the system is not a roadblock to Gilmour. In fact, if the Flames were full of Kanzig-like prospects, Gilmour would suddenly find himself much higher in the Flames' plans.
Alot of the guys you pointed out statistically won't make it. From a manager's perspective I would much rather have the deck stacked with guys like Russell, Andersson, Culkin, etc. than to have a Kanzig, who's very unlikely to pan out. You can always trade for a guy like Kanzig if you have a full deck of potential top 4. In previous eras, guys like Reghre, Gill, Sarich, and Kanzig might have been successfully due to their physical tools, but current hockey is so much about possession, staying out of the box, avoiding suspension, stretch the ice with good saucers and skating.

I would agree that Kanzig is not a roadblock to Gilmour, or to any other prospect IMO. You have to better than someone to be a road block.
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:45 PM   #60
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Phaneuf is a low IQ hockey player. He's not very good because he thinks the game slowly and poorly. Stop being such a spaz.
Why is the onus is on me to interpret that, when you could've just said this post to begin with? You sound like a 5 year old when ALL YOU SAY is that someone is dumb. I'm sorry, but if all I said was that you are dumb, how could it be implied that I'm suggesting something other than an insult? Further explanation is no doubt required.
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