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Old 08-09-2020, 04:43 PM   #2041
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Black Lives Matter did a great job with this as well. The organization made it so that arguing against the Black Lives Matter agenda was synonymous with arguing against black lives matter, the concept.

They're all being quite clever.
I'm not sure if you are aware of how transparent you are.
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Old 08-09-2020, 04:53 PM   #2042
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Well you have plenty of people who aren’t familiar with the “number of other causes” that BLM is involved with who still say “all lives matter” or “what about white lives” or “blue lives matter” in response, so to say it’s without controversy is fairly ignorant. Sure, most socially liberal people soundly agree with the concept, but there are plenty that don’t, or it wouldn’t be a conversation, would it?

What are the “number of causes” BLM advocates for that are justifiably controversial?

And can you provide an example of criticism of the BLM organization being seen as criticism of the concept of black lives matter?
I don't think there is anything controversial about saying "black lives matter". I haven't heard anyone saying "black lives don't matter". Have you? The concept that black lives matter seems to be universally accepted.

My point is that naming it the way they did, by co-opting a benign and uncontroversial statement, and then tacking on a number of policy demands is controversial. If they were more honest, they probably should have called themselves: Marxists-Against-Police-Brutality-Involving-Black-People. It would have been more accurate....

Still, BLM engages in a number of controversial topics which have broad social implications. You may or may not agree with their position, and a debate is worthy, but I would still call them controversial: defund the police and reparations being but two examples.

Their tactics of social disruption are controversial: blocking people from going to work, etc. Or blocking Pride parades like in 2016.

No, supporting BLM is not the same as simply saying black lives matter. It's much more.
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Old 08-09-2020, 04:56 PM   #2043
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I'm not sure if you are aware of how transparent you are.
Well, I try to be transparent. Is that not something we should all strive for? I'll take that as a compliment?
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Old 08-09-2020, 05:16 PM   #2044
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I don't think there is anything controversial about saying "black lives matter". I haven't heard anyone saying "black lives don't matter". Have you? The concept that black lives matter seems to be universally accepted.

My point is that naming it the way they did, by co-opting a benign and uncontroversial statement, and then tacking on a number of policy demands is controversial. If they were more honest, they probably should have called themselves: Marxists-Against-Police-Brutality-Involving-Black-People. It would have been more accurate....

Still, BLM engages in a number of controversial topics which have broad social implications. You may or may not agree with their position, and a debate is worthy, but I would still call them controversial: defund the police and reparations being but two examples.

Their tactics of social disruption are controversial: blocking people from going to work, etc. Or blocking Pride parades like in 2016.

No, supporting BLM is not the same as simply saying black lives matter. It's much more.
If “black lives matter” wasn’t a controversial idea, then you wouldn’t see a widespread disregard for black lives when compared to the lives of others, you wouldn’t see repeated examples of police seeing black lives as less important than white lives, you wouldn’t see the rise of open white supremacy. You wouldn’t see Black people continuously under-represented. To say that “black lives matter” is universally non-controversial is to be ignorant of what Black people actually experience.

Is that statement more controversial than the need for police reform? Doesn’t seem that way today, does it?

I question whether you even understand Black Lives Matter based of what you think they should be called (which is hilarious and simplistic) and your glossing over of the “why” behind their tactics. Staging a 30 min sit-in at Pride is not remotely controversial, and is more in-touch with the roots of Pride than many of the parades are today.

That being said, nobody is suggesting supporting Black Lives Matter is the same as saying “black lives matter,” and you still haven’t given any evidence of your claim that any criticism of Black Lives Matter is seen as criticism on the value of black lives, and I’m open to seeing your examples.

I just think you painting it as a clever move to shield them from criticism is without basis and kind of ignorant. And your idea that the value of black lives is universally understood is at best extremely naive.
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Old 08-09-2020, 05:57 PM   #2045
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I feel like Biden's camp mentioned they'd announce their VP pick this past week. Wonder what the delay is?
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Old 08-09-2020, 05:58 PM   #2046
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The original point about Antifa was sound. Antifa is to anti-facism as the Patriot Act was to Patriotism.

As far as BLM goes, there is a very clear statement of belief on the website.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Most of it is pretty straightforward and focused on, well, black lives mattering. There is some far-left identitarian bull#### mixed in there, but for the most part, the extraneous stuff that BoLevi attributed to BLM isn't actually there.

There are certainly BLM leaders who hold and express views about topics outside of what BLM says its mission statement is, but that's not surprising, as there's no expectation that if you sign on to be a BLM leader you're not allowed to have views on other political topics. There might be an argument that BLM as an organization should do a better job of avoiding the pollution of its message by its supporters but that's a different thing than suggesting that it's cloaking more controversial ulterior motives in an uncontroversial central position.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:18 PM   #2047
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Well, I try to be transparent.
Buuuuuuuulllllll####.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:25 PM   #2048
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I feel like Biden's camp mentioned they'd announce their VP pick this past week. Wonder what the delay is?
I thought I read that the person he wanted had some things come out about her hosting the communist party and such.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:28 PM   #2049
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I thought I read that the person he wanted had some things come out about her hosting the communist party and such.
Takes time to run these things by George Soros and Bill Gates and then arrange for the appropriate mind control vaccine to be made, they're just lizard people after all not gods
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:52 PM   #2050
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If “black lives matter” wasn’t a controversial idea, then you wouldn’t see a widespread disregard for black lives when compared to the lives of others, you wouldn’t see repeated examples of police seeing black lives as less important than white lives, you wouldn’t see the rise of open white supremacy. You wouldn’t see Black people continuously under-represented. To say that “black lives matter” is universally non-controversial is to be ignorant of what Black people actually experience.

Is that statement more controversial than the need for police reform? Doesn’t seem that way today, does it?

I question whether you even understand Black Lives Matter based of what you think they should be called (which is hilarious and simplistic) and your glossing over of the “why” behind their tactics. Staging a 30 min sit-in at Pride is not remotely controversial, and is more in-touch with the roots of Pride than many of the parades are today.

That being said, nobody is suggesting supporting Black Lives Matter is the same as saying “black lives matter,” and you still haven’t given any evidence of your claim that any criticism of Black Lives Matter is seen as criticism on the value of black lives, and I’m open to seeing your examples.

I just think you painting it as a clever move to shield them from criticism is without basis and kind of ignorant. And your idea that the value of black lives is universally understood is at best extremely naive.
My point was the naming was clever, in that it attached controversial ideas to a non-controversial statement. In other words, people can disagree with a lot of what BLM stands for, but still agree that "black lives matter".

Many of the issues you list are complex and worthy of discussion with reasonable people disagreeing on the best path forward.

Did the PRIDE parade in 2016 make a statement that could even remotely be construed as "black lives don't matter"? Of course they didn't.

This is the problem with BLM - if you disagree with them, they make the claim that you don't think black lives matter. It is, at the least, a failure of logic in that regard.
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:02 PM   #2051
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The original point about Antifa was sound. Antifa is to anti-facism as the Patriot Act was to Patriotism.

As far as BLM goes, there is a very clear statement of belief on the website.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Most of it is pretty straightforward and focused on, well, black lives mattering. There is some far-left identitarian bull#### mixed in there, but for the most part, the extraneous stuff that BoLevi attributed to BLM isn't actually there.

There are certainly BLM leaders who hold and express views about topics outside of what BLM says its mission statement is, but that's not surprising, as there's no expectation that if you sign on to be a BLM leader you're not allowed to have views on other political topics. There might be an argument that BLM as an organization should do a better job of avoiding the pollution of its message by its supporters but that's a different thing than suggesting that it's cloaking more controversial ulterior motives in an uncontroversial central position.
Anti-fascism is a noble position.

Unfortunately, "Antifa" is also anti-centre-right, anti-centre, anti-centre-left.

BLM explicitly calls for:

- defunding the police
- reparations
- removal or destruction of many of the current institutions/systems
- at least tacit acceptance of violence as a tool (depending who/where is speaking)
- at least 2 of the 3 founders are avowed marxists.

It's up to each individual to decide if they agree with these policy positions - but they are certainly controversial.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:23 PM   #2052
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You guys are being trolled. It's as obvious as the knee on George Floyd's neck.
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Old 08-10-2020, 03:21 AM   #2053
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I can't seem to find it, but a lawyer involved in the Trump campaign for President was the person who got Kanye on the ballot in one state, a swing state thats in play.

Does anyone have info on that news story, I can't seem to find it. But if true, the Trump campaign actively putting Kanye into play in states where he could take black votes from Biden to help Trump win is shady AF.
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Old 08-10-2020, 03:36 AM   #2054
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I can't seem to find it, but a lawyer involved in the Trump campaign for President was the person who got Kanye on the ballot in one state, a swing state thats in play.

Does anyone have info on that news story, I can't seem to find it. But if true, the Trump campaign actively putting Kanye into play in states where he could take black votes from Biden to help Trump win is shady AF.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ly/3318242001/
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:25 AM   #2055
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The concept that black lives matter seems to be universally accepted.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:40 AM   #2056
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I can't seem to find it, but a lawyer involved in the Trump campaign for President was the person who got Kanye on the ballot in one state, a swing state thats in play.

Does anyone have info on that news story, I can't seem to find it. But if true, the Trump campaign actively putting Kanye into play in states where he could take black votes from Biden to help Trump win is shady AF.

He's already being kicked off the ballot in Illinois because apparently 60% of the signatures he collected are invalid.



https://www.chicagotribune.com/polit...nue-story.html


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To make the ballot, West had to file 2,500 valid signatures from Illinois voters. He submitted 3,218 signatures, but a state elections board review Friday found that 60% of them, or 1,928, were invalid.




West’s lawyers can try to restore the disputed signatures by providing evidence and arguments. That’s likely to be a difficult task, however.




He's also very likely to be kicked off the Wisconsin ballot as well. I assume the other states will follow suit. What a f'n joke. Hard to believe we're even talking about this, but here we are. GOP gonna GOP.



https://www.wpr.org/challenges-argue...dential-ballot


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Lane Ruhland, an attorney for Trump's presidential campaign, hand-delivered West's petitions Tuesday shortly after the 5:00 p.m. filing deadline according to WISN-TV. Both complaints filed Friday argue that alone is enough to qualify the petitions.


One of the complaints, which was filed by Milwaukee resident Joseph Santeler, contends West also listed a home address in Wyoming where he does not live, which Santeler argued was also disqualifying.

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The second complaint, filed by Milwaukee residents William Brent, Keith Smith and Lauren Steven, as well as Oshkosh resident Richard Hughes, contends West's circulators lied to some voters in order to get them to sign the petitions.


It also argues several signatures are illegible and some are fraudulent. For example, the petitions included the names "Mickey Mouse" and "Bernie Sanders," not to mention two instances of "Kanye West."


Both complaints also argue that the people circulating Wests signatures failed to list their full or home addresses in many instances, which is required by law. That would be enough to strike 1,517 signatures according to the second complaint.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:57 AM   #2057
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NY Times reporting Trump's white house asked about adding Trump to Mount Rushmore...

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Washington (CNN)White House aides reached out to South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem last year about the process of adding additional presidents to Mount Rushmore, the New York Times reported.

According to a person familiar who spoke with the Times, Noem then greeted Trump when he arrived in the state for his July Fourth celebrations at the monument with a four-foot replica of Mount Rushmore that included his face.

Noem has noted before Trump's "dream" to have his face on Mount Rushmore, the Coolidge-era sculpture that features the 60-foot-tall faces of Presidents George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt.

According to a 2018 interview with Noem, the two struck up a conversation about the sculpture in the Oval Office during their first meeting, where she initially thought he was joking. "I started laughing," she said. "He wasn't laughing, so he was totally serious."

"He said, 'Kristi, come on over here. Shake my hand, and so I shook his hand, and I said, 'Mr. President, you should come to South Dakota sometime. We have Mount Rushmore.' And he goes, 'Do you know it's my dream to have my face on Mount Rushmore?'"

Trump also toyed with the idea of adding himself to Mount Rushmore in 2017 at a campaign rally in Youngstown, Ohio.
https://us.cnn.com/2020/08/09/politi...ota/index.html
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:33 AM   #2058
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He's already being kicked off the ballot in Illinois because apparently 60% of the signatures he collected are invalid.

He's also very likely to be kicked off the Wisconsin ballot as well. I assume the other states will follow suit. What a f'n joke. Hard to believe we're even talking about this, but here we are. GOP gonna GOP.
The Wisconsin supreme court is about as nakedly partisan as it gets, so I'm not sure that it's a given that he gets disqualified there. For example, see the shenanigans that they pulled during the primaries this year, to disqualify large numbers of votes-by-mail that had already been cast and force people to vote in person in the midst of the pandemic, going against the governor's orders.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:36 AM   #2059
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My point was the naming was clever, in that it attached controversial ideas to a non-controversial statement. In other words, people can disagree with a lot of what BLM stands for, but still agree that "black lives matter".
Then you agree with the core of what BLM stands for. It's not some clever play to disguise other issues, it's the basis for those issues. You can agree with the core of what they stand for and disagree with other issues or tactics. Not difficult.

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Did the PRIDE parade in 2016 make a statement that could even remotely be construed as "black lives don't matter"? Of course they didn't.
You seem to have trouble grasping the role of actions by looking only for explicit statements. Has Pride and the LGBTQ community been guilty of underrepresenting, excluding, and outright ignoring the struggles of black LGBTQ people? Yes. I would think you'd understand the importance of actions, given that you are the one who argued that physical abuse was much more severe and worthy of focus than racism and mental abuse when talking about Akim Aliu. Surely you aren't suddenly unable to grasp the implications just because someone doesn't explicitly say "black lives don't matter," right? You've at least pretended to be smarter than that once before.

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This is the problem with BLM - if you disagree with them, they make the claim that you don't think black lives matter. It is, at the least, a failure of logic in that regard.
Can you point to those specific claims? I've asked a few times.

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BLM explicitly calls for:

- defunding the police
- reparations
- removal or destruction of many of the current institutions/systems
- at least tacit acceptance of violence as a tool (depending who/where is speaking)
- at least 2 of the 3 founders are avowed marxists.
Your over-reliance on right wing talking points aside, this is pretty stupid, no? BLM is made up of different chapters and loose memberships with a set of aligning principles. Placing the views or actions of the few onto the many isn't really honest. To the bolded, should we say then that the Republican party explicitly calls for white supremacy, violence against minorities, that Jews are evil, and that the Holocaust was a hoax? Because I mean... depending on who/where is speaking...

I don't think you're trolling, but I do think you're trying to mask a bias which has been overwhelmingly obvious given your posting history. I don't think someone who has shown a consistent inability to comprehend the impact of racism or the existence of white privilege is very likely to have a balanced critical view of BLM (which is likely why you pull some of your talking points from right wing media).
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Old 08-10-2020, 11:38 AM   #2060
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Interesting read: (emphasis added)

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Evangelicals did not support Mr. Trump in spite of who he is. They supported him because of who he is, and because of who they are. He is their protector, the bully who is on their side, the one who offered safety amid their fears that their country as they know it, and their place in it, is changing, and changing quickly. White straight married couples with children who go to church regularly are no longer the American mainstream. An entire way of life, one in which their values were dominant, could be headed for extinction. And Mr. Trump offered to restore them to power, as though they have not been in power all along.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/u...istianity.html
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