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Old 05-15-2018, 01:49 PM   #12401
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If the Rangers are really eyeing Fox I would be thrilled if the Flames somehow could land Zibanejad. He’s looked amazing for Sweden in the WC. Would be a huge coup if they could land him. Would give up Fox+ for him.

The plus would be another good prospect or decent roster player.
If i am the Rangers’ GM, there’s no way in hell I trade him short of huge overpayment.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:54 PM   #12402
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"Always earned never given"
Why would we gift linemates to certain players when they haven't earned it?
The cream rises to the top, good players make their line mates better... something Bennett has shown he cannot do at this point in his career.

This was the projected lineup I pulled from a GDT from Oct 2016.

13 Gaudreau - 23 Monahan - 39 Chiasson
79 Ferland - 93 Bennett - 36 Brouwer
17 Bouma - 11 Backlund - 67 Frolik
19 Tkachuk - 18 Stajan - 10 Versteeg

Who was put into a better position to succeed from the get go... Bennett or Tkachuk? No doubt it was Bennett.
The difference is that Tkachuk forced GG to move him up the lineup, while Bennett has done the exact opposite.
In 2016-17 his most common linemates were Brouwer and Versteeg (36% of the time). But he did get Gaudreau and Chiasson 23% (the second most common).

His most common linemate by a landslide was Chiasson, not Brouwer.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2016-2017:R
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:55 PM   #12403
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Originally Posted by yourbestfriend View Post
"Always earned never given"
Why would we gift linemates to certain players when they haven't earned it?
The cream rises to the top, good players make their line mates better... something Bennett has shown he cannot do at this point in his career.

This was the projected lineup I pulled from a GDT from Oct 2016.

13 Gaudreau - 23 Monahan - 39 Chiasson
79 Ferland - 93 Bennett - 36 Brouwer
17 Bouma - 11 Backlund - 67 Frolik
19 Tkachuk - 18 Stajan - 10 Versteeg

Who was put into a better position to succeed from the get go... Bennett or Tkachuk? No doubt it was Bennett.
The difference is that Tkachuk forced GG to move him up the lineup, while Bennett has done the exact opposite.
I disagree. Brouwer and Stajan are both anchors. But Versteeg thinks the game at a much higher level than Ferland. Plus Bennett at 2C is a huge responsibility that would kill a lot of kids offensive opportunities. Bennett with Backs and Fro has a way better chance of success that with Versteeg/Stajan or Janko/Brouwer or Janko/Hath.

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His most common linemate by a landslide was Chiasson, not Brouwer.
Same difference...
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:57 PM   #12404
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I disagree. Brouwer and Stajan are both anchors. But Versteeg thinks the game at a much higher level than Ferland. Plus Bennett at 2C is a huge responsibility that would kill a lot of kids offensive opportunities. Bennett with Backs and Fro has a way better chance of success that with Versteeg/Stajan or Janko/Brouwer or Janko/Hath.


Same difference...
At that point any time someone would say "why don't they try Bennett at wing" there was a huge hue and cry.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:08 PM   #12405
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Originally Posted by savardandjokinen View Post
Bennett for Lindholm?



Why on earth would Carolina even consider this? Bennett's value isn't close to Lindholm's.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:11 PM   #12406
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Why on earth would Carolina even consider this? Bennett's value isn't close to Lindholm's.
They may feel they can get Bennett’s potential out of him. I think we’d add but Waddell may like it and think Bennett could do more than Lindholm. Then again he may think Lindholm would be better under a new coach
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:20 PM   #12407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yourbestfriend View Post
"Always earned never given"
Why would we gift linemates to certain players when they haven't earned it?
The cream rises to the top, good players make their line mates better... something Bennett has shown he cannot do at this point in his career.

This was the projected lineup I pulled from a GDT from Oct 2016.

13 Gaudreau - 23 Monahan - 39 Chiasson
79 Ferland - 93 Bennett - 36 Brouwer
17 Bouma - 11 Backlund - 67 Frolik
19 Tkachuk - 18 Stajan - 10 Versteeg

Who was put into a better position to succeed from the get go... Bennett or Tkachuk? No doubt it was Bennett.
The difference is that Tkachuk forced GG to move him up the lineup, while Bennett has done the exact opposite.
Funny you should cherry pick such a random line. But here, I'll play along.

2016-17 Season

Ferland-Center A-Brouwer
35.9 minutes TOI
35.94 CF%
0 GF
0 GA

Ferland-Center B-Brouwer
25.2 minutes TOI
60.53 CF%
2 GF
1 GA


Center B is Sam Bennett and Center A is Sean Monahan.

SO - why exactly did Center B not actually even get to keep those specific linemates for even the same amount of icetime as center A?

Because Gulutzan was one of the most clueless coaches in Flames history, if not the most.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:24 PM   #12408
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Originally Posted by savardandjokinen View Post
They may feel they can get Bennett’s potential out of him. I think we’d add but Waddell may like it and think Bennett could do more than Lindholm. Then again he may think Lindholm would be better under a new coach
If Waddell thinks this way shouldn’t we avoid that trade then...since we just hired the coach he would have been held back by?
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:24 PM   #12409
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I mean, I don't understand how you think someone is giving you an established, good player back for Bennett and taking a gamble that Bennett becomes... an established, good player.



If he gets traded it's either in a bigger package or a 1 for 1 swap with another struggling, young player that hasn't met expectations.




OT: anyone know why I can't quote other posters?
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:29 PM   #12410
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I only see two scenarios where Bennett gets moved this off season:

1. He's asked for a trade and BT goes out and gets a couple picks for him. Probably at most a late 1st round pick from a team with multiple picks and who is rebuilding (EG the Rangers).

2. BT packages him up as part of a much bigger deal that brings a couple decent top 6 forwards to Calgary (EG packaged up with a Dman like Brodie, Hamilton or maybe even Stone)
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:32 PM   #12411
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
Funny you should cherry pick such a random line. But here, I'll play along.

2016-17 Season

Ferland-Center A-Brouwer
35.9 minutes TOI
35.94 CF%
0 GF
0 GA

Ferland-Center B-Brouwer
25.2 minutes TOI
60.53 CF%
2 GF
1 GA


Center B is Sam Bennett and Center A is Sean Monahan.

SO - why exactly did Center B not actually even get to keep those specific linemates for even the same amount of icetime as center A?

Because Gulutzan was one of the most clueless coaches in Flames history, if not the most.
I didn't cherry pick anything. That was literally the only GDT from the beginning of 2016/2017 season I could find using google. Someone else can go search for other GDT's from that time period and post those lineups. But from that thread (CGY vs CAR) Tkachuk - Stajan - Chiasson was a line for the first 4 games of the season before Chiasson and Versteeg were switched because Versteeg didn't do anything on the top line.

My argument was that if somehow Tkachuk can force himself up the lineup despite his linemates, then the linemate argument shouldn't be holding Bennett back either.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:40 PM   #12412
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Originally Posted by yourbestfriend View Post
I didn't cherry pick anything. That was literally the only GDT from the beginning of 2016/2017 season I could find using google. Someone else can go search for other GDT's from that time period and post those lineups. But from that thread (CGY vs CAR) Tkachuk - Stajan - Chiasson was a line for the first 4 games of the season before Chiasson and Versteeg were switched because Versteeg didn't do anything on the top line.

My argument was that if somehow Tkachuk can force himself up the lineup despite his linemates, then the linemate argument shouldn't be holding Bennett back either.
Bennett had to displace Mikael Backlund or Sean Monahan to "move up the lineup".

Tkachuk had to displace who exactly? Lance Bouma? Who probably isn't in the NHL next season?

You are not remotely comparing apples to apples.

Gulutzan's usage of Bennett in his first season here was nothing short of baffling, from replacing him with Frolik on PP2 - for almost no reason when Bennett was actually working out - to stapling him to winger combinations that had no chance of working out (Gaudreau - Chiasson never worked with Monahan OR Bennett as the center, Versteeg - Brouwer had almost identical results with Monahan as the center, and by the time Versteeg-Bennett-Chiasson was finally established Bennett's season was already well foregone).
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:49 PM   #12413
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The problem is he isn't even a 40 point player. He's had 26 points each of the last two years. He'd need to improve his production by more than 50% to be a 40 point player.
He still has 89 more points than Marchand at the same age
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM   #12414
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
Bennett had to displace Mikael Backlund or Sean Monahan to "move up the lineup".

Tkachuk had to displace who exactly? Lance Bouma? Who probably isn't in the NHL next season?

You are not remotely comparing apples to apples.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that going into his sophomore season there was a strong sentiment around here that Bennett would be the 2C going forward and that Backlund would be the 3C. Looking at that GDT from Oct2016 obviously GG felt the same way too.
A recent #4 OA pick displacing a career 40pt defensive center isn't unreasonable. Hell, most of us (myself included) thought Bennett would turn out to be better than Monahan.

As for Tkachuk displacing the wingers on this team, yes there was less talent for him to displace, but at the same time, a lot of us thought he'd be sent down at some point because of skating or to prove he wasnt carried by Dvorak/Marner. The fact that he's shown he's better than Chiasson, Bouma, Brouwer, Versteeg etc etc isn't necessarily because those guys suck, but because Tkachuk is really freaking good.

I'll repeat what i already said, Tkachuk forced the team to put him in better and better positions because of his play. He started with Stajan and Chiasson before he forced GG to move him into more important offensive and defensive roles. The same cannot be said about Bennett.
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:13 PM   #12415
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lol
I am going to quote this post in the next few years and you are going to look foolish.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:54 PM   #12416
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Originally Posted by theslymonkey View Post
I think what a lot of people forget is that most players don't even get into the league until they are 20/21. So when they break out in their 3rd or 4th season, it seems about right. The difference is that Bennett is just entering his 22 year and his 20 and 21 years were stuck on the third line with small amounts of PP time and Brouwer tied to his ass.
Age should be of less concern than number of games played. Sam has over 250 (including playoffs). To say Bennett is running in place would be kind. There should be some indication of improvement.

Deployment should be taken into account, but I'm fairly confident in saying GG didn't tell Sam to play out of position and take bad penalties while being generally ineffective otherwise. I would love to see him turn into even half the player we thought we were getting when drafted. I'd be pleased with a 20g/20a third line physical winger at this point.

I think the Flames should make a push for RoR to play with tkachuck on the second line and push Backlund & Frolik down to the third line to play (ie: prop Sam up) on the third line.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:41 PM   #12417
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Age should be of less concern than number of games played. Sam has over 250 (including playoffs). To say Bennett is running in place would be kind. There should be some indication of improvement.

Deployment should be taken into account, but I'm fairly confident in saying GG didn't tell Sam to play out of position and take bad penalties while being generally ineffective otherwise. I would love to see him turn into even half the player we thought we were getting when drafted. I'd be pleased with a 20g/20a third line physical winger at this point.

I think the Flames should make a push for RoR to play with tkachuck on the second line and push Backlund & Frolik down to the third line to play (ie: prop Sam up) on the third line.
I disagree regarding the importance of the number of NHL games played. Age matters more than NHL experience in terms of physical development, strength, and maturity. I would argue that the total number of games played as a pro in the NHL or in the minors is probably a better indicator for a young player than simply the number of NHL games is.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Bennett reunited with Backlund and Frolik. People seem to forget that Bennett's greatest success was when he was playing with those two in their prime, and since then the quality of his linemates has taken a massive drop.

I think Bennett's 200-foot game actually has improved, but I do hope that better linemates will result in his rushes and zone entries being better supported, which may help to reduce his offensive zone turnovers and the resultant penalties.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:27 AM   #12418
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Originally Posted by TOfan View Post
Age should be of less concern than number of games played. Sam has over 250 (including playoffs). To say Bennett is running in place would be kind. There should be some indication of improvement.

Deployment should be taken into account, but I'm fairly confident in saying GG didn't tell Sam to play out of position and take bad penalties while being generally ineffective otherwise. I would love to see him turn into even half the player we thought we were getting when drafted. I'd be pleased with a 20g/20a third line physical winger at this point.

I think the Flames should make a push for RoR to play with tkachuck on the second line and push Backlund & Frolik down to the third line to play (ie: prop Sam up) on the third line.

When you say number of games played, I would assume you are referring to NHL number of games. After all most prospects also play a number of games in the minors. Should those be discounted? Counted less? How much does losing a season to a shoulder injury count?

I am with Dissentowner. Need another coach and another year to close the book on Sam just yet.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:42 AM   #12419
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Originally Posted by TOfan View Post
Age should be of less concern than number of games played. Sam has over 250 (including playoffs). To say Bennett is running in place would be kind. There should be some indication of improvement.

Deployment should be taken into account, but I'm fairly confident in saying GG didn't tell Sam to play out of position and take bad penalties while being generally ineffective otherwise. I would love to see him turn into even half the player we thought we were getting when drafted. I'd be pleased with a 20g/20a third line physical winger at this point.

I think the Flames should make a push for RoR to play with tkachuck on the second line and push Backlund & Frolik down to the third line to play (ie: prop Sam up) on the third line.
Sam stalled under the gamble on a coach that took 60 point pace Gio to 38 and 39 point seasons, broke Brodie, and made the Brouwer acquisition look embarrassing.

21 years old. New coach.

*sigh*
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:00 AM   #12420
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Sam stalled under the gamble on a coach that took 60 point pace Gio to 38 and 39 point seasons, broke Brodie, and made the Brouwer acquisition look embarrassing.

21 years old. New coach.

*sigh*
And also the same coach who had Gaudreau score at over a point per game pace for the first time in his career, Monahan who set a career high in points despite playing a career low number of games and was injured for a quarter of them, Micheal Ferland who scored a career high 21 goals, Matthew Tkachuk who improved his point total despite playing 8 less games than the previous season, Mikael Backlund who finished 4th in Selke voting, Dougie Hamilton who scored 50 points one year and led all defenseman in goals the next year....

I think you get the point. Blaming the coach for Bennett is a cop out if you ask me. It's possible he turns it around this season, but nothing I've seen would lead me to believe that will be the case.
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