R2 - Series Thread - Golden Knights (P1) vs Sharks (P3)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do you focus so much time and effort in your contrarian posts? I appreciate your opinion but I do not appreciate you calling my opinion false.

Then get your facts straight. Certainly, there have been a handful of instances—as you point out below and which I had already acknowledged—in which players have been appointed directly to management positions, probably prematurely. But you are the one who called this NORMATIVE. It is not.

No conversation like this can start without first mentioning Garth Snow. Right from playing to GM. BOOM! Plenty of these guys like Joe Nieuwendyk went directly from playing into management bypassing proper scouting. Ron Francis went from the Raleigh Youth Hockey Association to director of hockey operations with the Hurricanes. Don Sweeney retired in 2004 and in 2006 he joined the Bruins as the team’s director of player development. Joe Sakic after taking two years off after retirement was named executive advisor of the Avalanche. Even Conroy got hired directly as a special assistant to the GM after retiring. Honestly I could go on and on about how many of these guys didn’t pay their dues in proper talent evaluation as you don't become a good evaluator of talent overnight. It takes years and sometimes decades to become a top scout and talent evaluator of talent. As Jammies said earlier the NHL has always been a big old boys club.

I think you first need to make a cogent presentation of what constitutes "paying ones dues," and show how one properly develops skills at being a talent evaluator. You seem to have an idea about what this entails but it would help a great deal for you to then articulate it. Then I would think the impetus is upon you—since you are the one making the claim about the dearth of quality in NHL management—to provide some evidence to support your claim.

For my part, I don't have a strong opinion, except to say that I do not think yours is borne out by the current situation in the NHL. Show me some evidence, and I will be happy to discuss it.

Another thing that has to be noted is that unlike most other sports most NHL players education usually tops out at high school diploma due to the nature of drafting 18 year olds. What other industries do multimillion dollar business operations get placed into the hands of people with high school diplomas? At least a lot of NFL and NBA players have business degrees.

I think this is a good point, but then it also begs the question as to what sorts of skills are required for quality hockey operations and team management. It would seem to me that the best course into a career as a NHL talent evaluator would be through scouting, but I don't see how that would require a university education. Moreover, this would seem to be the preferred route as I demonstrated above, since most NHL executives did in fact start their front office careers as scouts.

[Erick Estrada]

Textcritic I really don't believe I need the critique from you as I stated my case which I believe holds up. You disagree which is fine but I don't think it's cut and dry that I'm incorrect.

In regards to scouting I don't necessarily believe that you need a postsecondary diploma to be a good scout seeing that there's not a course in university that teaches what makes for a good hockey player. My issue is you have these ex-players thrown right into management roles when they really aren't qualified at all. This goes all the way back to owners that for some reason don't run their sports teams like they do their other enterprises that got them rich. Being a GM is part talent evaluation and part manager and most scouts that become managers end up working their way up from amateur or pro scout do director of scouting to GM and in that ascension they probably do learn a lot about the business and I'm sure some of them may have have taken business courses along the way. To me it all goes back to the league being an old boys club which is why the Jarmo Kekalainen hire was such a curious hire by the Jackets as he wasn't really part of the NHL outside of a short stint with the Senators.

[renny]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No kidding, why does it matter what anyone thought last summer? Opinions aren't allowed to change on here apparently.

Draft rules were obviously too easy

People keep joking/cryin' that the Knights have more playoff wins than the Flames in a decade. Guess what, they have more playoff wins than 13 teams (almost half the league) in the last decade. Its ridiculous.

Also I'm hearing they won't lose a player with Seattle expansion? WTF is that bull####

I think the point that they were trying to make was that at the time of the expansion draft nobody said "HOLY MOTHERF*****G S**T THE TABLE IS SO STACKED IN VEGAS' FAVOR TO BE A CUP CONTENDER!!!!!!!!!! SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE CAUSE THIS IS A ROBBERY!!!"

I distinctly remember people laughing at McPhee for his trades etc. on this very forum.

"What would he want with that guy?"
"Why is George Mcphee more concerned about making friends than building a good team? "
"I am really underwhelmed with what Vegas is doing so far. That's going to be a really bad team."
"How is it any different than any team going through a rebuild that wants to build through the draft? Sucking now is optimal."

And now that they're successful people are suddenly pissed that they're successful? Vegas is undeserving of a successful team? That's so absurd, you can't be mad if you thought the rules seemed fair at the time. That's like agreeing to draw straws, and when you draw the short straw you yell unfair and you want to do a popular vote instead.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

That's my opinion as a fan of an opposing team.

Every other team has to build through the draft. Why do they get to steal NHL players from other teams that are good enough when put together to challenge for a President's trophy and Stanley Cup?

The $500 million they paid doesn't mean a ####ing thing to me either, as a fan of the Calgary Flames who just watched them take one of three playoff spots in our division.

No reasonable expansion draft rules are going to overcome terrible GMs either not protecting their best players or putting themselves in a position where they had to use slots on junk. Anaheim lost Theodore because they had to protect Bieksa instead of Manson; Columbus lost Karlsson because they had to get out from under the Clarkson contract and had to use a spot on Hartnell, who they bought out a week later; Florida threw away Marchessault and Smith just so they could protect Petrovic; St. Louis gave up Perron so they could protect a 9 minute a night 4th liner in Reaves; and the list goes on.

When you look at some of the players that garnered protection slots (L. Schenn, Markus Granlund, Lazar, Carrick, Jurco, Grimaldi, M. Martin, etc.) I find it hard to buy the argument that the rules were too slanted in favor of Vegas.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

My god you are one miserable dude Textcritic.

I am a fan of precision. And no, I am far from miserable.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am a fan of precision. And no, I am far from miserable.

Ha ha I revised my post as I thought it was a little harsh. You do come across as quite grumpy though.

[Tsawwassen]

Originally Posted by Red

Would love to see Fleury vs Pittsburgh.
Hard to dislike the guy. And funny how he was thought as a crappy playoff goalie. Guy just keeps on winning and 4 shutouts in 10 games is just a cherry on top.

Yep, totally agree. I have always liked him and defended him. Too bad he was relegated to being the #3 goalie for the 2010 Olympics. Loserongo will always be inferior in comparison to Fleury.

[Tsawwassen]

Originally Posted by spetch

Just saw something interesting on the US Sportscentre. This should of been actually easy to see coming as it happens every 50 years.

1917-18 Toronto Arenas first year - Won Stanley Cup

1967-68 St Louis Blues first year - Lost Stanley Cup

2017-18 Vegas Golden Knights - ???

Reading around the net, many complaints being made of the Knights this season are similar to people complaining about the Blues half a century ago. I gotta get into that DeLorean and go back in time.