Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Snuffleupagus]

Everytime I open this page my heart jumps when I see [Trade] at the top. if we can't let this thread die can we at least remove this part?

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I sure hope the Flames aren't counting on Lucic to contribute to their playoff success, or lack thereof.

Obviously if the Flames have some playoff success it's going to come from their core players showing growth from last season. If their core guys can be hungrier, faster, and more prepared to battle in the playoffs that'll go a long way to finding that playoff success.

But hockey is a team game, just a couple of guys can't win you a series, you need contributions from everywhere. Lucic is never going to carry the load offensively, but he can still have a part to play by being a physical presence.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Everytime I open this page my heart jumps when I see [Trade] at the top. if we can't let this thread die can we at least remove this part?

Seems like a you issue. This trade is going to be talked about for years. If you can’t handle the sight of the word trade then this message board will never be a safe place for you.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Seems like a you issue. This trade is going to be talked about for years. If you can’t handle the sight of the word trade then this message board will never be a safe place for you.

At least this one is still here because the topic is being discussed. When old trade or signing threads get bumped just as a general discussion about that player it's sure annoying

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Seems like a you issue. This trade is going to be talked about for years. If you can’t handle the sight of the word trade then this message board will never be a safe place for you.

I get what he means though - it's more about the excitement that seeing Trade in the preview bar generates and then it's just let down when it's this thread.

Now that it's no longer "breaking news" I feel like changing that thread headline to [Discussion] or something could be beneficial.

[PepsiFree]

Yeah, no reason to get snippy over it, it’s a misleading title now. It’s no longer discussing the trade. It’d be like using a signing thread to discuss Bennett’s performance.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yeah, no reason to get snippy over it, it’s a misleading title now. It’s no longer discussing the trade. It’d be like using a signing thread to discuss Bennett’s performance.

Then Snuffalapagus should start a new thread as a new home for the discussion. Be proactive, do something about it if you care that much. Whining about thread titles that are months old just seems whiny to me but I may be alone in that

[FlamesAddiction]

I hated the trade when it happened because I knew that Neal had really good potential to rebound. Last year was such an outlier for him that he shouldn't have been written off. Having said that, I accept the trade as it is likely Neal would not have rebounded in Calgary. Too many ill feelings with him and the team. The main thing I hated about it was it was with the Oilers and they would be the ones benefiting.

I find the statistical gymnastics going on to downplay the positive effect he has on the Oilers a little embarrassing and expected a little more objectivity from such an educated fan base. It reminds me of that Oilers fan (mudcrutch?) who used to post all kinds of stats to show why Oilers players were always better than the Flames despite always having a worse team record. We used to make fun of him all the time for cherry picking fancy stats and ignoring what was staring him right in the face.

Powerplay goals matter. Points in October matter. Neal improves the Oilers. Be real here, Chiasson, or whoever else would be playing in his spot would not be as effective as Neal has been.

Is he going to regress back to his normal career production, of course. But make no mistake, he makes the Oilers better (too be fair, giving them any player from our roster would have made them better). Will it be enough to make the playoffs? Likely not, but I suspect their undoing will be wearing down McDavid and Draisaitl as the season goes on and not because Neal has a Corsi below 50% (normal is between 40% and 60%).

Having said that, the jury is still out on Lucic IMO. He hasn't made a difference, but he hasn't been terrible. In fact, I think he has been better than a few of our bottom 6 incumbents.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I hated the trade when it happened because I knew that Neal had really good potential to rebound. Last year was such an outlier for him that he shouldn't have been written off. Having said that, I accept the trade as it is likely Neal would not have rebounded in Calgary. Too many ill feelings with him and the team. The main thing I hated about it was it was with the Oilers and they would be the ones benefiting.

I find the statistical gymnastics going on to downplay the positive effect he has on the Oilers a little embarrassing and expected a little more objectivity from such an educated fan base. It reminds me of that Oilers fan (mudcrutch?) who used to post all kinds of stats to show why Oilers players were always better than the Flames despite always having a worse team record. We used to make fun of him all the time for cherry picking fancy stats and ignoring what was staring him right in the face.

Powerplay goals matter. Points in October matter. Neal improves the Oilers. Be real here, Chiasson, or whoever else would be playing in his spot would not be as effective as Neal has been.

Is he going to regress back to his normal career production, of course. But make no mistake, he makes the Oilers better (too be fair, giving them any player from our roster would have made them better). Will it be enough to make the playoffs? Likely not, but I suspect their undoing will be wearing down McDavid and Draisaitl as the season goes on and not because Neal has a Corsi below 50% (normal is between 40% and 60%).

Having said that, the jury is still out on Lucic IMO. He hasn't made a difference, but he hasn't been terrible. In fact, I think he has been better than a few of our bottom 6 incumbents.

It's not mental gymnastics to point out a super high shooting percentage or a team on a PDO bender with terrible underlying stats.

It's barely a mental somersault to be honest. And it certainly isn't embarrassing.

Basically its the same thing I was saying about the Buffalo Sabres last year after their hot start, which created a lot of people pissed at me if I remember correctly.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's not mental gymnastics to point out a super high shooting percentage or a team on a PDO bender with terrible underlying stats.

It's barely a mental somersault to be honest. And it certainly isn't embarrassing.

Basically its the same thing I was saying about the Buffalo Sabres last year after their hot start, which created a lot of people pissed at me if I remember correctly.

Of course his shooting percentage will regress to his career norm, but the same is possible or likely for his underlying stats, which were not terrible for most of his career. His career CF% is greater than 50% (53.5% where anything greater than 55% is elite).

Don't get me wrong, I know he wasn't going to work for us and am glad he is gone, but he is capable of being a good player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Of course his shooting percentage will regress to his career norm, but the same is possible or likely for his underlying stats, which were not terrible for most of his career. His career CF% is greater than 50% (53.5% where anything greater than 55% is elite).

Don't get me wrong, I know he wasn't going to work for us and am glad he is gone, but he is capable of being a good player.

If you look though he was a 55-60% player in Pittsburgh and into then in year two in Nashville things started to slide ...

In relative terms as he's always played on good teams he was a big plus, then that went from +5 to +1 to -2 to -3 last year.

Same thing for xGF% ... big plus to zero to -4.

This isn't a one season thing.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Just my opinion, but inferring something negative about a player’s character while claiming you can’t share details is pretty bad form. It kills discussion, looks petty and accomplishes nothing positive.

He wasn't inferring, he was implying. You were inferring.


https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/8545881e-f...2-164e383099c9

[the2bears]

I'm really liking Lucic's game tonight.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I'm really liking Lucic's game tonight.

Best night for him for sure.

[powderjunkie]

The Red Wings aren't very good so it doesn't really count, right?


Am I doing the drive-by trolling thing correctly?

[DeluxeMoustache]

I expect the early season hand wringing in this thread will not age well

[crapshoot]

The line of Lucic-Ryan-Bennett was really good tonight, albeit against a pretty bad team. Lucic and Bennett seems to have some pretty good chemistry going early on, and if they can keep clicking it could be a really good line over the course of the season. Lucic seems to be building off having quality linemates and he really looked like he was feeling it tonight. So far Lucic is pretty much what I was hoping he would be, he is not gonna move the needle too far in determining the Flames success this year, but he actually looks pretty good out there and he finds ways to contribute on pretty much a nightly basis.

As far as comparisons go, James Neal didn't have one single game as a Flame where he even looked remotely as engaged or where he influenced the outcome of a game in the way Lucic did tonight.

[Resolute 14]

Lucic definitely had a fantastic third period last night.

It also helped that Bennett was finally engaged in the right way too. Would like to see a lot more of that from those two.

[devo22]

I was one of those who absolutely hated the trade and my feelings haven't exactly changed. But if Lucic can consistently play like he did yesterday then I might just find my peace with it.

[colbym72]

That was a great 3rd period by Lucic. The first assist is exactly the role he needs to play with the hit setting up a goal