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Old 05-28-2021, 02:46 PM   #41
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Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.

But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.

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For what it's worth, I know the Nashville Predators have the same number of amateur scouts as they do pro scouts. Their European scouts scout amateurs and pros together. They have more pro and European scouts, but fewer amateur scouts than the Flames do.
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Old 05-28-2021, 02:47 PM   #42
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CP has a very specific way of assigning blame for bad drafts to whoever isnít here anymore and credit for good drafts to whoever is currently in charge.



2016 - great draft that proves Treliving and Button are competent

2015 - great draft that proves Treliving and Button are competent

2014 - BURKE MADE EVERY PICK AND TRADE despite admitting he had zero say in hockey decisions at that point

2013 - Weisbrod and Feaster messed it up

2012 - Weisbrod and Feaster messed it up

2011 - Button did a great job by passing on Kucherov and taking Johnny. Weisbrod and Feaster had zero involvement
This is just a completely disingenuous representation of how these drafts have been assessed by posters on this board. Then to assign this strawman hot-take to "CP" generally is just lame and unhelpful.

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Old 05-28-2021, 02:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.

But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.

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took a quick look at Tampa. I like how it covers all the bases.

8 amateur scouts
4 European scouts
3 Pro scouts
1 NCAA free agent recruiter & scout
and a goalie scout
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Old 05-28-2021, 02:54 PM   #44
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This is just a completely disingenuous representation of how these drafts have been assessed by posters on this board. Then to assign this strawman hot-take to "CP" generally is just lame and unhelpful.

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Relax it was mostly in jest. Plus most of the responses prove my point. Literally the post after tried to blame Burke for drafts where he wasnít even GM because some of the players we took were tall

People on here just get VERY defensive if you suggest Tod Button isnít good at his job based on a 19 year sample size of mediocrity
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:15 PM   #45
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The Flames' drafting has definitely improved, but are they even a top-15 drafting team since Treliving took over?
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:24 PM   #46
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Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.

But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.

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the last 3 Stanley Cup Champions have 2-3 pro scouts
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:25 PM   #47
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Nvm
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:28 PM   #48
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This seems crazy to me. How do you expect to steal any underrated players or win any trades involving pro players?
Not crazy at all. There are far more amateur players than pro players.

Amateur scouting is looking for a needle in a haystack. Pro scouting is looking at your sewing kit.
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:30 PM   #49
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The Flames' drafting has definitely improved, but are they even a top-15 drafting team since Treliving took over?
hard to judge- particularly as we need to adjust for both draft position and number of draft picks (both of which are things controlled also by the GM- although often in different directions)


2015 looks like an ok draft, but a great draft adjusted for draft position (Andersson, Mangiapane, +/- Kylington with no pick before 53)
2016 seems like an amazing draft which benefited from draft position (Fox, Tkachuk, Dube is a pretty darn good haul in a 30 team league)
2017 seems 'ok' . they got an NHLer of some sort and a prospect who still has legs
2018 is a draft position/number of picks problem


and probably fair to call 19/20 too early to judge (but depending on how charitable you are there are names to like within the pile, but for now they are just that)
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:03 PM   #50
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hard to judge- particularly as we need to adjust for both draft position and number of draft picks (both of which are things controlled also by the GM- although often in different directions)


2015 looks like an ok draft, but a great draft adjusted for draft position (Andersson, Mangiapane, +/- Kylington with no pick before 53)
2016 seems like an amazing draft which benefited from draft position (Fox, Tkachuk, Dube is a pretty darn good haul in a 30 team league)
2017 seems 'ok' . they got an NHLer of some sort and a prospect who still has legs
2018 is a draft position/number of picks problem


and probably fair to call 19/20 too early to judge (but depending on how charitable you are there are names to like within the pile, but for now they are just that)
This is a fair assessment. I still take major issue with the 2014 draft not falling under Treliving/Button

He was in full control of hockey decisions at that time, and had two months to prepare for the draft. Plus he was hired from Phoenix as an AGM where he managed the amateur scouting staff so it can’t be argued he was unprepared.

and that draft is a disaster. Highest pick in franchise history plus multiple seconds and we walked away with nothing while other teams found superstars
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:18 PM   #51
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Sutter gets a lot of flack for controlling the scouting department when he was here. He moved on in 2010.

So looking for from 2011 on Button has been in charge...Lets grade picks Pass or Fail

2011 - Overall Grade - Pass
13th - Baertschi - Fail
45th - Granlund - Pass
57th - Wotherspoon - Fail
104th - Gaudreau - Pass
164th - Brossoit - Pass

2012 - Overall Grade - Fail
21st - Jankowski - Fail
42nd - Sieloff - Fail
75th - GIllies - Fail
105th - Kulak - Pass
124th - Culkin - Fail
165th - Gordon - Fail
186th - DeBlouw - Fail

2013 - Overall Grade - Fail
6th - Monahan - Pass
22nd - Poirier - Fail
28th - Klimchuk - Fail
67th - Kanzig - Fail
135th - Roy - Fail
157th - Harrison - Fail
187th - Rafikov - Fail
198 - Gilmour - Fail

2014 - Overall Grade - Fail
4th - Bennett - Fail
34th - McDonald - Fail
54th - Smith - Fail
64th - Hickey - Fail
175th - Ollas-Mattson - Fail
184th - Carroll - Fail

2015 - Overall Grade - Pass
53rd - Andersson - Pass
60th - Kylington - his development has been stuck in 1st gear for about 4 years - Fail
136th - Karnaukhov - Fail
166th - Mangiapane - Pass
196th - Bruce - Fail

2016 - Overall Grade - Pass
6th - Tkachuk - Pass
54th - Parsons - Fail
56th - Dube - Pass
66th - Fox - Pass
96th - Lindstrom - Fail
126th - Mattson - Fail
156th - Tuulola - TBD
166th - Phillips - TBD
186th - Falovsky - Fail

2017 - Overall Grade - TBD
16th - Valimaki - TBD
109th - Ruzicka - TBD
140th - Fischer - Fail
171st - Joly - Fail
202nd - Sveningsson - Fail
Top 2 picks left from this draft, can they salvage it or another failed draft?

Too early to tell for 2018 on...

You have here 7 draft classes...You have 3 passes and 3 fails and 1 TBD...
You have 45 players selected...You have 10 passes...33 fails...2 TBD...

Diving into the 10 passes...
Players who have become par of the core, ie have got a 2nd big contract.
Gaudreau
Monahan
Takchuk
Andersson

Players who were traded away for whatever reason before they became something...
Kulak - 102 games as a Flame
Brossoit - 0 games as a Flame
Fox - 0 games as a Flame
Granlund - 86 games as a Flame

2 Others are Dube and Mangiapane...

Overall are you satisfied with this work? Honestly going into this exercise I though it would've been better.

I think its time for an overall organizational change. Pro scouting, amateur scouting, GMs office, coaches (leave Sutter I guess since he just came back).
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:17 PM   #52
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Hate to rain on the parade but Button had Linus Lindstrom ahead of Adam Fox and got persuaded by Jim Cummins to even take him
Fair enough, but this is why you build a team in the first place, not everyone has seen enough of one guy or believes in another, but so long as discussions can respectfully take place, then thatís a good environment. I actually give Button credit then for being flexible in that sense. I mean weíre talking about 3rd and 4th rounds here, drafts are generally crapshoots at this point. Nobody is going bat a thousand this deep into the draft.

What I will say is, the amateur scouts, relatively speaking have done a good job compared to the pro scouts. Thatís where I donít pull punches, because the pro scouting team has siphoned an incredible number of resources (picks) from the amateur group, only to piss them away on mediocre plays. Then the amateur scouts are stuck with a lot less to work with and yet, are still expected to hit bullseyes and to their credit, theyíve done that.

I think if the situation was in reverse and the Flames ended up accumulating picks and rebuilding, the Flames would be a lot further ahead than they are now and thatís sort of how make my judgement on both sides.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:21 PM   #53
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It's not a CP thing. It's common sense.

When Sutter was the GM they had a huge lean towards size and being from Western Canada. Craig Button was into Russia, but that went away completely when he was let go.

Feaster didn't have as much a set plan, was all over the place.

Bryan Burke had them back into drafting big again in his one year at the table.

Under Treliving they've taken more swings at high end skill regardless of issue (skating, size).

Different guys at the top change what happens in a scouting group. Seems silly to look past that.

I think Treliving has given his scouting staff a larger voice and with that they've found some gems late in the draft. Not popular to support Treliving these days, but this is one area he has clearly improved.
100%. Iíve been as critical on Treliving as anyone, but I must give credit where credit is due. He gives the amateur scouting staff a direction and his mandate was to find value picks in the later rounds and theyíve done just that. I think I heard his drafting philosophy was to look at players other teams disregard or something to that effect.

For that, I give Treliving a lot of credit because Darryl and Burkeís mandate in comparison blows chunks. Good riddance to their drafting philosophy.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:33 PM   #54
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Treliving gets credit for great late round picks. Which I assume refers to Mangiapane. Shouldn’t that happen once in a while? Ferland, Brodie and Gaudreau were late round picks too, granted not quite as late.

I don’t know if the numbers actually prove out the idea that drafting under Treliving has improved.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:48 PM   #55
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Sutter gets a lot of flack for controlling the scouting department when he was here. He moved on in 2010.

So looking for from 2011 on Button has been in charge...Lets grade picks Pass or Fail

Snipped - Not looking so good in summation.
Hard to argue when you look at it like this. I'm curious to see the rebuttals though.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:54 PM   #56
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To take an objective view one should do an analysis that is inclusive of number of picks and average per round of each of those picks. Then figure out number of NHLers and impact NHLers selected under that. Lots of work but otherwise, as with so many things, we are likely each going to assess aligned with what we've already decided.

My view, with its own bias, is that the drafting has improved and that the primary problem has been lack of picks.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:55 PM   #57
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Hard to argue when you look at it like this. I'm curious to see the rebuttals though.
While appreciating the work put into it - the view is still too simple. Pass/fail is too binary.

For example these two drafts are classified both as "pass" when one is clearly MUCH better but that isn't accounted for at all.

2011 - Overall Grade - Pass
13th - Baertschi - Fail
45th - Granlund - Pass
57th - Wotherspoon - Fail
104th - Gaudreau - Pass
164th - Brossoit - Pass

2016 - Overall Grade - Pass
6th - Tkachuk - Pass
54th - Parsons - Fail
56th - Dube - Pass
66th - Fox - Pass
96th - Lindstrom - Fail
126th - Mattson - Fail
156th - Tuulola - TBD
166th - Phillips - TBD
186th - Falovsky - Fail
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:56 PM   #58
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To take an objective view one should do an analysis that is inclusive of number of picks and average per round of each of those picks. Then figure out number of NHLers and impact NHLers selected under that. Lots of work but otherwise, as with so many things, we are likely each going to assess aligned with what we've already decided.

My view, with its own bias, is that the drafting has improved and that the primary problem has been lack of picks.


So then it has been poor overall asset management
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:59 PM   #59
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So then it has been poor overall asset management
I think it has been poor management of draft capital in an effort to open the contending window based on a (proven to be wrong) assumption that the core players had another step to take.

But you think BT should be fired and I don't. We aren't going to change each other's minds.

My post was specific to the draft record.
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Old 05-28-2021, 06:55 PM   #60
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Treliving gets credit for great late round picks. Which I assume refers to Mangiapane. Shouldnít that happen once in a while? Ferland, Brodie and Gaudreau were late round picks too, granted not quite as late.

I donít know if the numbers actually prove out the idea that drafting under Treliving has improved.
Itís not just the late late picks though. I mean the second and third rounds are no guarantee as thereís plenty of misses there. Dube and Fox were great selections. Ruzicka was a nice late find in the hundreds. Going against the grain and grabbing Pelletier was a risky move, but looks good. Wolf and Pettersen could be players down the road and they were grabbed real late. Jury is still out on Phillips. I certainly liked the dropping down and grabbing 2 extra picks to grab the guy you wanted anyway.

I mean whatís a realistic goal here in a draft? Itís finding 2 to 3 players per draft right? Youíre not gonna hit em all. So, based on what Iíve seen especially with what theyíve had to work with, I like what Iíve seen. Had the Dougie trade not go through, Iím very curious as to what the 2015 draft couldíve been. Maybe 5 or 6 guys in that incredibly deep draft.

I know Iím a very hard marker on management. But I think itís only fair to give credit where credit is due and Treliving deserves kudos on his work with the draft. Itís been very good relative to expectations.
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