Giordano-Hamilton is the best defense pairing in the league

[Jason14h]

hey are a good pair but let's not pretend they are amongst the leagues best here. If they were, the Flames would certainly be a few more rungs up the standings.

Except the other pairings which play 60% of the game are the worst pairings in the league.

Whoever plays with Gio between Brodie and Hamilton looks great, whoever doesn't looks like a 3rd pairing D.

Maybe we need to stop saying we should trade Gio

[bigrangy]

After last night's tremendous performance, Giordano-Hamilton is now 8th among pairings in Goals for % at 62.79%.

For reference, the pairings with higher ratios are:

3 Washington pairings (the best 5v5 team since 07-08)
Super-Spurgeon (who are legitimately very, very good and play in front of Dubnyk)
Schultz-Cole (Pittsburgh's sheltered all-offense pair)
Chicago and Ottawa's 3rd pairings

What these two have been able to do with the supporting cast and goalies this team has actually been incredible. I wouldn't say that either of them would really be in the Norris conversation individually but if there was an award for pairings they would have it locked up if they kept playing like they are.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Except the other pairings which play 60% of the game are the worst pairings in the league.

Whoever plays with Gio between Brodie and Hamilton looks great, whoever doesn't looks like a 3rd pairing D.

Maybe we need to stop saying we should trade Gio

Which was the point of my post.....statistically they look very good on our team because the rest of the d pairings are so woefully inept. Being better than your teammates doesn't make you one of the best pairings in the league.

They're certainly a good pairing but this is a textbook situation where advanced stats are quite misleading.

[BlackWallStreet]

Terrific pairing definitely top 5 in the league (IMO)

[Bingo]

I've honestly moved to the hybrid camp now.

I don't discount what I see, but I think discounting all advanced stats is equally as close minded.

You have to look at both. Good hockey fans know good hockey, but if a guy is on the ice for 60% of shot attempts against every night he has to be part of the problem. You can't just ignore it.

The drop of Brodie without having Giordano at the same time you see a rise in Hamilton is circumstantial, but certainly interesting.

Giordano isn't the player he was with the puck, but he clearly isn't a lot of fun to play against.

[PeteMoss]

The shift in performance in Brodie and Hamilton's play with and without Giordano says all you need to know Giordano. He's not as good of a skater as the other two so he often gets overlooked, but pretty clear who's the key component on our D right now.

[Finger Cookin]

Don't the stats from the initial post suggest Giordano and Hamilton are the best defensemen pairing in the league at generating offense? How are they at shot suppression and goals allowed? I see the GF% tells part of this story, but what about SAT and USAT?

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If these advanced stats were legitimately effective it would factor in that the top pairing of Giordano and Hamilton look so good because the next two pairings have been borderline incompetent all season.

There were many plays last night that sum up exactly why Gio and Dougie have some serious holes in their games. Lapses in the corners, playing way too soft on forwards around the net etc.

They are a good pair but let's not pretend they are amongst the leagues best here. If they were, the Flames would certainly be a few more rungs up the standings.

The team is in a playoff spot for the most part because of Hamilton, Backlund and Tkachuk. It's not out to lunch to think that Hamilton is already one of the top D in the league, pair him with Gio and Ya thats probably one of the top 5v5 pairs in the league. Gio had his struggles early but since being paired with Dougie they have been really good.

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Don't the stats from the initial post suggest Giordano and Hamilton are the best defensemen pairing in the league at generating offense? How are they at shot suppression and goals allowed? I see the GF% tells part of this story, but what about SAT and USAT?

SAT is Corsi, USAT is Fenwick.

In raw numbers, they are #2 in SAT, #1 in USAT, and in relative numbers, they are #1 in both.

They control the play like no others do.

[Komskies]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Man Dougie is having a great season. Showing really nice progression every year since he's been in the league. Gonna be a horse for us for a long time.

Actually according to Burke he's a deer, not a horse. Close enough though!

[Leeman4Gilmour]

I know this isn't a Brodie thread, so I am hoping for someone to point me to a discussion which likely exists in another spot. On Tuesday Friedman said something along the lines of "now that Brodie has gone public with what he's being dealing with, it's understandable why he's having an off year"

What's Brodie been "dealing with"?

Thanks for laying those stats as you did. Also reinforces why Treliving worked on retooling the bottom 4 d-pairings.

[Samonadreau]

^ His wife was diagnosed with MS.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I know this isn't a Brodie thread, so I am hoping for someone to point me to a discussion which likely exists in another spot. On Tuesday Friedman said something along the lines of "now that Brodie has gone public with what he's being dealing with, it's understandable why he's having an off year"

What's Brodie been "dealing with"?...

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

^ His wife was diagnosed with MS.

I think it is important to point out that Brodie's wife was diagnosed in Oct 2015. I don't doubt that this is something that has an effect on his day-to-day goings on, but I also think there is more than his concerns about his wife's health that factors into his poor performance this year.

[IgiTang]

Whatever the case may be, best or top 5 or a dominant pairing in the league, you don't see the media talking about how solid of a pair they are.. it's all about the juicy Wideman situation. It would be nice to hear those two get a bit more recognition around the league.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Don't the stats from the initial post suggest Giordano and Hamilton are the best defensemen pairing in the league at generating offense? How are they at shot suppression and goals allowed? I see the GF% tells part of this story, but what about SAT and USAT?

Zone/Score-Adjusted Shot Suppression (from Corsica):

49.98 shot attempts against per 60 (ranks as 3rd best in League among 500+ 5v5 minute pairings (second place is Washington's Orpik-Schmidt 3rd pair, 1st place is Anaheim's excellent Lindholm-Manson pair), and ranks 1st among 600+ minute 5v5 pairings)

35.83 unblocked shot attempts against per 60 (ranks as 3rd best in League among 500+ 5v5 minute pairings (second place is San jose's Schlemko-Dillon 3rd pair, 1st place is Anaheim's excellent Lindholm-Manson pair), and ranks 1st among 600+ minute 5v5 pairings)

Raw shot suppression numbers by center (from Puckalytics):

W Bennett: 48.99 CA60 / 1.56 GA60
W Monahan: 49.84 CA60 / 1.60 GA60
W Backlund: 48.39 CA60 / 1.17 GA60
W Stajan 46.66 CA60 / 1.47 GA60

In amusing contrast, Russell-Wideman in 2014-15 when we made the playoffs, had 67.30 CA60 (per Puckalytics) and yet thanks to absurdly inflated SV% (that fell apart the next year) posted a respectable 2.24 GA60

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The shift in performance in Brodie and Hamilton's play with and without Giordano says all you need to know Giordano. He's not as good of a skater as the other two so he often gets overlooked, but pretty clear who's the key component on our D right now.

Yeah. Wideman is the key component. When he's your partner your game goes down the crapper. Hamilton and Brodie have taken turns on the Wideman train over the past few seasons but Gio mostly gets paired with Brodie or Hamilton. Not taking anything away from Gio because he's a gamer and good all around but he rarely gets stuck with the boat anchor partner.

[cannon7]

I'm glad Hamilton doesn't play the same physical game as a Pronger type, Pronger was injury prone his entire career pretty much. I want to see Hamilton continue to use his big frame more effectively, but I don't want to see him make unnecessary hits and such.

[activeStick]

But we should get rid of Giordano while we can... Expose him in the expansion draft!

I've been told that the Flames probably regret the contract they gave Giordano the minute he signed!

[Samonadreau]

The thing about Gio's contract is he's probably playing to the value of it right now which means unless he's a superfreak in a couple years he will regress to not playing up to it and by the end of it it will be an anchor. And by all accounts the teams window should start to open as he is regressing. What are you gonna do though....

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

SAT is Corsi, USAT is Fenwick.

In raw numbers, they are #2 in SAT, #1 in USAT, and in relative numbers, they are #1 in both.

They control the play like no others do.

So both the GF% and SAT%/USAT% are for totals for and against, right? Like the 60% GF means of all goals scored when whoever is on the ice, 60% are for them and 40% are against them. Same for the other measures (not the relative ones, I know that compares to the rest of the team)...is that right?

Sorry, I get turned around on this stuff still, sometimes.