Giordano-Hamilton is the best defense pairing in the league - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

bigrangy · 02-22-2017, 12:01 AM

So we all know that Giordano and Hamilton have made one heck of a great pair together this season, but I was wondering just how good they are.

All stats from corsica, at 5v5, among pairings with over 300 minutes together (73 pairings in the sample)

First, the non fancy stats:

Goals for %: 60% (14th in the league)
Goals for %, relative to team: 22.39% (1st in the league)

In terms of goal differential, no pairing in the league outperforms the rest of their team by such a huge margin. 14th in the league in raw goal differential is also quite impressive, considering the Flames are -18 goals at 5v5.

Now the fancy stats:

Corsi for %: 56.95 (2nd in the league, behind Ekholm-Subban)
Fenwick for %: 57.69 (1st in the league)
Shots for %: 59.05 (1st in the league)
Expected goals for %: 57.77 (4th in the league, behind Orpik-Schmidt, Cole-Schultz (lol), Hedman-Stralman)
Scoring chances for %: 56.86 (13th in the league)

Relative Corsi for %: 7.75 (1st in the league)
Relative Fenwick for %: 9.13 (1st in the league)
Relative shots for %: 9.70 (1st in the league)
Relative expected goals for %: 10.55 (1st in the league)
Relative scoring chances for %: 9.42 (6th in the league)

This paints a pretty nice picture for the Flames' top pairing. Giordano and Hamilton are excelling in all aspects of their games and rightfully deserve to be talked about when discussing the league's best pairings.

Spoiler!

It is incredible that Giordano can elevate his pairing to such a height. He has done it in the past with Brodie and now to an even higher level with Hamilton. It says a lot about his abilities to be able to play at such a high level with a partner that most (non-Flames fans) would say isn't a top pairing defenseman. Hamilton in his own right has been very good, and will be a key piece of this franchise for a long time to come. I've noticed some people express the sentiment that Giordano has been struggling this season, and to them I would say:

"How can you do any better than this?"

GoJetsGo · 02-22-2017, 12:06 AM

I know the offense hasn't been there for Gio this year (compared to the last few) but you can't help but marvel how well rounded he is in all aspects for the game. Definitely one of the very best all-around d-men in the league.

He and Dougie have been a great pairing this year and it's nice to see Hamilton taking strides toward being what we all hoped he would become when we traded for him.

IgiTang · 02-22-2017, 12:14 AM

Buuuuuut.... Brodie was the reason Gio was good... right?!...

Gio is a stud and is all heart. Its rubbing off on Dougie and thats great. Brodie is still great but his weaknesses are exposed not playing with Gio.

But in terms of best pairing in the league I would say ... Brent Burns and who ever gets a shift beside him is the best pairing in the league right now.

GranteedEV · 02-22-2017, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Buuuuuut.... Brodie was the reason Gio was good... right?!...

Gio is a stud and is all heart. Its rubbing off on Dougie and thats great. Brodie is still great but his weaknesses are exposed not playing with Gio.

But in terms of best pairing in the league I would say ... Brent Burns and who ever gets a shift beside him is the best pairing in the league right now.

Burns is highly sheltered... he is basically used as an ultimate Anton Babchuk with Vlasic, Braun, even their third pair taking on a lot defensive responsibilities.

Gio-Hamilton and Ekholm-Subban are both used highly defensively in comparision. Two best pairings in the league.

Alberta_Beef · 02-22-2017, 12:30 AM

They have been good, but they are not the best in the league. Not even close, I don't care what advanced stats say because if they say that, they aren't that advanced.

dying4acup · 02-22-2017, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

They have been good, but they are not the best in the league. Not even close, I don't care what advanced stats say because if they say that, they aren't that advanced.

I'm not an advanced stats nerd, but the OP provided proof of what he was saying. Respect that, and at least say what you are seeing to make you disagree. At very least provide an alternative.

IgiTang · 02-22-2017, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Burns is highly sheltered... he is basically used as an ultimate Anton Babchuk with Vlasic, Braun, even their third pair taking on a lot defensive responsibilities.

Gio-Hamilton and Ekholm-Subban are both used highly defensively in comparision. Two best pairings in the league.

Ekholm and subban arent even the best pair on their own team... Josi and Ellis have better numbers and even they dont come close to the flavour of the game between Vlasic or Martin paired with Burns..

Edit: Oh and 24+ mins a night on avg/gm is not is not sheltered when you are 3rd in the league in scoring behind Crosby and McDavid and are dominating in all defensive categories.

Anduril · 02-22-2017, 01:09 AM

What's the difference between being sheltered and being used in advantageous situations? I'd imagine you'd want your most offensive players to get as many opportunities in the offensive zone and against weaker opponents. Although you could spin it and say it's because they're incompetent in their own zone and can't stack up against competition. So how do you draw the line?

Alberta_Beef · 02-22-2017, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dying4acup

I'm not an advanced stats nerd, but the OP provided proof of what he was saying. Respect that, and at least say what you are seeing to make you disagree. At very least provide an alternative.

What am I seeing that makes me disagree? It's called hockey. All you have to do is look around the league. I love Hamilton and Giordano and am thrilled with how they have played but suggesting they are the best pairing in the league is ridiculous, especially just because advanced stats say so.

How can the best pairing in the league have one guy that isn't even used on the PK and has averaged fewer than 20 minutes per night? I'm sorry but despite what advanced stats tell you, it's simply not true. Maybe, and that is a big maybe, they are top 5 but certainly not the best.

GreenLantern2814 · 02-22-2017, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Buuuuuut.... Brodie was the reason Gio was good... right?!...

Gio is a stud and is all heart. Its rubbing off on Dougie and thats great. Brodie is still great but his weaknesses are exposed not playing with Gio.

But in terms of best pairing in the league I would say ... Brent Burns and who ever gets a shift beside him is the best pairing in the league right now.

First of all, great work, Gio and Dougie - they've held this team together, and we would be in no position to be acquiring Michael Stone without them.

I don't know that I'd ever have said Brodie was the reason Gio was good, but I know for sure that there have been times in the last two years where I thought he was better.

As for Hamilton, I think when that young man is 28 years old, he's is going to be one of the most fearsome things in the NHL. Dougie has stepped up in a big way this year - when neither Brodie or Gio was going much offensively, he contributed a ton of points from the back end. He's shooting more, he's more physical, he's getting better in his own zone. I'd like to see more meanness.

I read the other week that Hamilton is one of three defensemen with 30+ points, 150 shots and 70 blocks. The other two guys are Byfuglien and Burns.

Beninho · 02-22-2017, 01:37 AM

Man Dougie is having a great season. Showing really nice progression every year since he's been in the league. Gonna be a horse for us for a long time.

GranteedEV · 02-22-2017, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduril

What's the difference between being sheltered and being used in advantageous situations? I'd imagine you'd want your most offensive players to get as many opportunities in the offensive zone and against weaker opponents

Your success shouldn't be coming at the expense of your teammates' success, because that lessens your impact. Guys like Burns and in the past Karlsson are great in the situations they are put in, but need someone else to carry the load and create those situations for them. We saw this firsthand in its purest form with Dion Phaneuf on our second pair getting Norris accolades. The minute he was asked to play a true Pronger type role he fell and the team apart. Burns is having a great season, one for the ages. But that is helped along by Vlasic-Braun and Schlemko-Dillon being excellent pairings that play a huge part in their success. It's the same with Panarin-Anisimov-Kane as a forward line... they depend on Toews and Kruger to get them high ground, and the production of Toews and Kruger is less impressive as a result. Same with Carter's line in LA and the Monahan line for us.. Kopitar and Backlund do a lot that keeps their production down. When the Backlund line, or the Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrknak line, score it's naturally less often but in context more impressive TO ME than the Anisimov line scoring.

Quote:

Although you could spin it and say it's because they're incompetent in their own zone and can't stack up against competition. So how do you draw the line?

There is no need to draw a line so black and white as "competent" vs "incompetent". Good players are good players but having some context can go a long way. Again back to the Phaneuf parallel. Was Phaneuf ever truly the second best D in the league? Was he still pretty much always a solid top 4 guy with a hell of a point shot? Where do you draw the line? You probably don't; the truth was probably somewhere in the middle. As for Burns I believe he is dragged down by Paul Martin but is having an amazing season and pretty much playing a style of game I freakin love. If he won the Hart I wouldn't even be mad. But to me a strong D pair starts with shutdown play, and that for the Sharks is Vlasic-Braun.

dying4acup · 02-22-2017, 01:53 AM

[QUOTE=GreenLantern2814;6134094

As for Hamilton, I think when that young man is 28 years old, he's is going to be one of the most fearsome things in the NHL. Dougie has stepped up in a big way this year - when neither Brodie or Gio was going much offensively, he contributed a ton of points from the back end. He's shooting more, he's more physical, he's getting better in his own zone. I'd like to see more meanness.

I read the other week that Hamilton is one of three defensemen with 30+ points, 150 shots and 70 blocks. The other two guys are Byfuglien and Burns.[/QUOTE]

A little bit more mean and... could he be Pronger?

FlameZilla · 02-22-2017, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

As for Hamilton, I think when that young man is 28 years old, he's is going to be one of the most fearsome things in the NHL. Dougie has stepped up in a big way this year - when neither Brodie or Gio was going much offensively, he contributed a ton of points from the back end. He's shooting more, he's more physical, he's getting better in his own zone. I'd like to see more meanness.

I read the other week that Hamilton is one of three defensemen with 30+ points, 150 shots and 70 blocks. The other two guys are Byfuglien and Burns.

And Treliving acquired him for draft picks. A couple of magic beans. Seriously, that could prove to be the trade of the decade.

heep223 · 02-22-2017, 07:01 AM

Great thread. Initially I came in here to say "no way", as Alberta Beef did, but I have no evidence to counter OP aside from my own eyes. Since I'm not watching all of the other teams in the league all we have to go by are stats really.

Erick Estrada · 02-22-2017, 07:02 AM

I'm still stunned that Wideman has averaged more ice time this season than Hamilton. How does this happen? Gulutzan has committed more than a few fire able offenses this season but this may be the at the top of the list.

spuzzum · 02-22-2017, 07:04 AM

Advanced statistics and corsi are great discussion and conversation points. If we had the best defense pairing in the league, we wouldn't be hanging on to a wildcard spot within the weakest division in hockey.

Hamilton and Gio are a good pair but it comes ultimately down to wins and losses that trump any statistical argument.

FlameZilla · 02-22-2017, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuzzum

Advanced statistics and corsi are great discussion and conversation points. If we had the best defense pairing in the league, we wouldn't be hanging on to a wildcard spot within the weakest division in hockey.

Hamilton and Gio are a good pair but it comes ultimately down to wins and losses that trump any statistical argument.

When the other 2 defensive pairings rate as the two worst pairings in the league it's quite easy to see why we haven't yet cemented a playoff spot.

I'm really hoping Stone & Bartkowski can help shore up our leaky vessel.

Erick Estrada · 02-22-2017, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuzzum

Advanced statistics and corsi are great discussion and conversation points. If we had the best defense pairing in the league, we wouldn't be hanging on to a wildcard spot within the weakest division in hockey.

Hamilton and Gio are a good pair but it comes ultimately down to wins and losses that trump any statistical argument.

Well in addition to all the forwards on the team save for one line having down years, you can point to Wideman's 20 minutes per game and a continuous rotation of 6th defensemen all season to reasons this team is hanging on to a wildcard spot.

Hot_Flatus · 02-22-2017, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

They have been good, but they are not the best in the league. Not even close, I don't care what advanced stats say because if they say that, they aren't that advanced.

If these advanced stats were legitimately effective it would factor in that the top pairing of Giordano and Hamilton look so good because the next two pairings have been borderline incompetent all season.

There were many plays last night that sum up exactly why Gio and Dougie have some serious holes in their games. Lapses in the corners, playing way too soft on forwards around the net etc.

They are a good pair but let's not pretend they are amongst the leagues best here. If they were, the Flames would certainly be a few more rungs up the standings.