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Old 03-15-2012, 12:11 PM   #41
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Russia's had a stead decrease in murders for example since 1999 going from 31,000 + down to 17,000 in 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:18 PM   #42
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Either that or you've been turned into a violent psychopath (if you weren't one already) and then released upon society.

I'd rather see our prisoners in forced manual labour/education programs than punished just for the sake of it. I'm a huge proponent of rehabilitating prisoners. Obviously, some are just psychos and beyond help. Others come from bad backgrounds and both society and the prisoner will be better off if they gain employment and education skills while in prison.

The idea of guards allowing prisoners to participate in violence and crime while in prison is distasteful in every way.

I don't have an argument with you on the whole hard labor rehab route, I've said it a few times in the past and I believe even in this thread. You can try to save first time offenders with education, but there has to be a punishment removal of rights aspect to it. I firmly believe that there has to be a scare element to criminal rehabilitation.

For sex offenders, and violent offenders (especially multiple times) I think there has to be a whole other system of punishement. This particular class of criminals don't seem to be fixable.

I would be all for a work prison system where Prisoners earn their keep doing jobs that other people might not or won't do. Scrubbing camp toilets in Banff, building roads in the arctic. Cleaning up the streets while wearing bright orange coveralls for light offenders. Great I'm fine with that.

No T.V, no gyms no golf courses, porridge three times a day.

Prisoners should realize that their crime has consequences, beyond going to a place where they have a comfy bed, three good meals a day, time to work out and watch T.V., the ability to still vote.

For multiple offenders put them up in the arctic and air drop supplies, no need for guards or administrative staff, if you want to go back to society enjoy a 500 mile walk through the blistering cold.

For the special prisoners like Olson and Pikton and the others that I've mentioned before. Death penalty.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:33 PM   #43
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Russia's had a stead decrease in murders for example since 1999 going from 31,000 + down to 17,000 in 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia
And what direction would you say the Russian prison system has moved in since the lawlessness of the immediate post-Soviet era? I think it would be pretty tough to argue that the current system is more tortuous and archaic. If anything that figure supports my argument.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:40 PM   #44
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I don't know if the prison system was reformed since the fall of communism, The justice system certainly changed as it was reformed to an extent.

But everything I've seen the prisons are just as brutal as they were back then if not more brutal.

What they don't do now that they did then in the same numbers, was a lot of state sponsered brutality.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:01 PM   #45
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I don't have an argument with you on the whole hard labor rehab route, I've said it a few times in the past and I believe even in this thread. You can try to save first time offenders with education, but there has to be a punishment removal of rights aspect to it. I firmly believe that there has to be a scare element to criminal rehabilitation.

For sex offenders, and violent offenders (especially multiple times) I think there has to be a whole other system of punishement. This particular class of criminals don't seem to be fixable.

I would be all for a work prison system where Prisoners earn their keep doing jobs that other people might not or won't do. Scrubbing camp toilets in Banff, building roads in the arctic. Cleaning up the streets while wearing bright orange coveralls for light offenders. Great I'm fine with that.

No T.V, no gyms no golf courses, porridge three times a day.

Prisoners should realize that their crime has consequences, beyond going to a place where they have a comfy bed, three good meals a day, time to work out and watch T.V., the ability to still vote.

For multiple offenders put them up in the arctic and air drop supplies, no need for guards or administrative staff, if you want to go back to society enjoy a 500 mile walk through the blistering cold.

For the special prisoners like Olson and Pikton and the others that I've mentioned before. Death penalty.
Not going to get into the death penalty issue (or forced marches through the arctic), as that's another debate entirely.

However, I don't entirely disagree with you. There are far too many luxuries and freedoms in prison now. My idea of rehabilitation would make prisons look a lot more like boot camps.

Nutritious yet boring food, removing tv, couch, video game, etc.. privileges....all good suggestions.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #46
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Back on topic these two people deserve death for what they have done. How can anyone argue against that?
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:03 PM   #47
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i have said it before .. criminals like these should be sent to the arctic and spend 17 hours a day doing hard labour.

dig a hole, fill a hole. dig a hole, fill a hole. dig a hole, fill a hole.

every day. for the rest of their life.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #48
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Back on topic these two people deserve death for what they have done. How can anyone argue against that?
my argument is that death is too easy. if it were me, i would prefer to die than the russian prison system (i watched some of the posted video).

dig a hole, fill a hole. every day, for the rest of their lives seems like a harsher punishment than death.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:07 PM   #49
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Back on topic these two people deserve death for what they have done. How can anyone argue against that?
I don't disagree, but I'd like to see what happens in this trial over the next few weeks in terms of physical evidence that pins him to the scene and to the rape and murder.

Based on what we've heard these are both evil people, but that's based on the prosecutions scene setting using a witness that cut a deal and seems to be protecting him.

I'm wondering if they found any DNA evidence on the girls body, though with the amount of time that she was out there, its probably doubtfull.

The shoes and clothing and the suppossed evidence found in the car could be damaging though.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:07 PM   #50
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my argument is that death is too easy. if it were me, i would prefer to die than the russian prison system (i watched some of the posted video).

dig a hole, fill a hole. every day, for the rest of their lives seems like a harsher punishment than death.
Even with the bare minimum of a russian prison you and I are still responsible to pay for these people to live until they die. Kill them now and relieve the burden from society.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:09 PM   #51
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The court costs built around a death penalty case including appeals is prohibiative.

A lot of that due to a appeals process that can take 20 years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692...question-cost/

I willl argue though that the annual costs of housing a prisoner in Canada is gross with a cost of $52,000 to $250,000 per year depending on prisoner requirements.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:15 PM   #52
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The court costs built around a death penalty case including appeals is prohibiative.

A lot of that due to a appeals process that can take 20 years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692...question-cost/
I agree. The system is completely messed up.

The female that has admitted guilt needs to be taken directly to firing squad and you can invoice me for that bullet personally. In reality you and I will be paying for her for the next 25 years to live, eat and stay healthy. Then after she is released you and I will pay her welfare so she can live another 20years. Why? If your found guilty of a malicious crime such as this there should be no time or money wasted in getting to the finality.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:16 PM   #53
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Even with the bare minimum of a russian prison you and I are still responsible to pay for these people to live until they die. Kill them now and relieve the burden from society.
we waste much more on other projects that can be cut. i would like to extract some blood from these people.

wishing for death and being denied and forced into extreme labour is real punishment. wishing for death and being granted it is not something these monsters deserve.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:36 PM   #54
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I don't know DR, read up on the Ronald Smith in Montana, he's the typical thug. killed people so that he would know what it was like to kill people. Then in the courts he acted like a tough guy and demanded the death penalty. Then as his date with the executioner loomed he broke down like a b%tch and started running through the appeals, because he's afraid to die.

I think that whether your religious or not, you worry about what's going to happen to you when you die.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #55
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I agree. The system is completely messed up.

The female that has admitted guilt needs to be taken directly to firing squad and you can invoice me for that bullet personally. In reality you and I will be paying for her for the next 25 years to live, eat and stay healthy. Then after she is released you and I will pay her welfare so she can live another 20years. Why? If your found guilty of a malicious crime such as this there should be no time or money wasted in getting to the finality.
Right, because we've never seen anyone confess to a crime they didn't commit or be vindicated of a crime they were found guilty of.

You can't make rules for one particular case, they need to be able to be applied on a much more broad level, and a system that removes appeals and due process rights from people sentenced to death results in innocent people being killed by the state. Hell, a system with those processes still has that result.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:44 PM   #56
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I don't know DR, read up on the Ronald Smith in Montana, he's the typical thug. killed people so that he would know what it was like to kill people. Then in the courts he acted like a tough guy and demanded the death penalty. Then as his date with the executioner loomed he broke down like a b%tch and started running through the appeals, because he's afraid to die.

I think that whether your religious or not, you worry about what's going to happen to you when you die.
great, so prolonging his death just adds to the punishment. dieing is still the easy way out if your only life option is decades of tortuous hard labour.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:50 PM   #57
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great, so prolonging his death just adds to the punishment. dieing is still the easy way out if your only life option is decades of tortuous hard labour.

I was reading a book on the death penalty in the states a couple of years ago and the appeals process, where the defence team just recycles every appeal on the book whether its relevant to the case or not.

At a certain point in the death penalty process its no longer about the trial and appeals based on trial error, it becomes about tieing up the system for as long as possible with debating the same merrits about cruel and unusual punishment.

there's one appeal that I read about with an inmate that had sat on death row for 20 years because of appeal after appeal after appeal, and one of his final appeals was based around the fact that he had been inncarcerated and under the threat of the death penalty for 20 years and it had rendered him mentally incompetant so he wouldn't be able to appreciate why he was being punished with death. In other words going through the appeals process represented cruel and unusual punishment

Death penalty law is actually pretty facinating stuff in a grim way.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:25 PM   #58
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You can't build the prison system and the punishment/rehabilitation system around the chance of a wrongful conviction.

The penalty part of the justice system should be built around the assumption of a proper conviction.
Except you can't make that assumption when decisions are placed in the hands of humans who are not infalible. We will make mistakes, and I can pretty much guarantee you that your view on a wrongful convictions would change if you or a family member were one of the wrongfully convicted.

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The wrongful conviction question belongs in the courts, not in the execution of the sentence handed down by the courts.
You can't have one without the other. First-degree murder is first-degree murder whether you've confessed to it or been found guilty based on evidence. I don't think people understand the legal quagmire they'd be entering by administering arbitrary punishments.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:59 PM   #59
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Right, because we've never seen anyone confess to a crime they didn't commit or be vindicated of a crime they were found guilty of.

You can't make rules for one particular case, they need to be able to be applied on a much more broad level, and a system that removes appeals and due process rights from people sentenced to death results in innocent people being killed by the state. Hell, a system with those processes still has that result.
Why would anyone admit to a crime that carried an automatic death sentence? Doesn't sound like a person we want in our society in the first place if your willing to be that stupid.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #60
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Today's testimony from McLintock about conflicted statements in her confession

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03...hael-rafferty/
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