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Old 03-14-2012, 09:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Northendzone View Post
She is not being tried, her boyfriend, raferty is
Thanks, like a few others I've had a hard time getting past more than a paragraph in the stories about these two. Good luck to either of them trying to survive outside a cell.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:58 PM   #22
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National Geographic ran a feature on Russia's toughest prisons recently. Basically scumbags like these two are put into a 4x8 cell without windows, behind a 2 foot steel door, where they are allowed to sleep for 8 hours, made to sit on a chair without touching their bed the rest of the time, save for a couple hours of exercise. The exercise is basically the prisoners walking around in a stress position(bent over), with around 8 guards, blindfolded. I actually freaked out when I watched it. Can't imagine having to live like that. For any reason.

Somehow I think even that would be too good for these two pieces of human trash.

I would put them in a modified cell with room enough for a chair, a bed and a toilet and force them to stay there, without ever seeing the outside world again. Make sure there is no way they can commit suicide. 70+ years of that is too kind.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:17 PM   #23
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Bone chilling testimony. This McClintic girl sounded like a dimwit to me. She agreed to take the fall for her boyfriend, come on.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:59 PM   #24
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Saw this in one of the articles today and thought it was interesting:

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At that stage, in mid-April, she (McClintic) had repeatedly denied all knowledge of Tori's disappearance, which had galvanized Woodstock. In particular, she said it was not she who appeared on a video clip leading Tori away from her school.
But a few weeks later, on May 19, a long, videotaped interview with OPP Detective Sergeant Jim Smyth prompted her to confess to her role in the crime. (Det. Sgt. Smyth would become famous a few months later for his successful interrogation of serial killer and former Air Force colonel Russell Williams.)
That's some good police work!
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dear god is he 14?
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:39 AM   #25
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More testimony from today

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Tor...642/story.html

Some key bits that tell you how sick this was and how much worse it should have gotten

Quote:
"I said I would take the fall for everything. I would say that it was all me," the 21-year-old told a jury Wednesday at the first-degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.
"That he had more to lose than I did, that he had a life, a job, there was more for him and I was just . . . I really had nothing."



Quote:
When she lured Tori into Rafferty's dark Honda Civic parked near the school that day, she said, Rafferty expressed his disappointment in her choosing Tori.
"He made a comment that she wasn't young enough," said McClintic. "Just that it should've been a younger person."


Quote:
It also emerged in court Wednesday that following Tori's death McClintic handed out flyers of the missing girl with a neighbour.


Quote:
She told the court she and Rafferty placed the murder weapon, a hammer, into a garbage bag along with her white jacket and his T-shirt, which both contained blood. The bags also contained empty water bottles, Tori's clothing and her Bratz backpack.
The two then drove to a car wash in Cambridge, Ont., where they threw this "evidence" into a Dumpster. They cleaned the outside and inside of the car, and later tossed their shoes onto Highway 401, she said.
McClintic also took a knife and cut out pieces of the car's back seat where there were still stains, she said. The pair changed into new clothing before returning to Woodstock that evening. Police have recovered both the shoes and the new clothing.


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Old 03-15-2012, 01:29 AM   #26
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I read the article today and it just ruined the whole day. Just trying to imagine it is horrific. Just unbelievable.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:12 AM   #27
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So what do parents on this board do to keep their children safe from predators like this? Our kids are 3 & 5 right now.

I realize that the probability of stranger abduction is extremely low. I am the first one that doesn't want to scare the crap out of my kids. Equally important to spend time on things that are really likely to be a danger to them.

As a parent, I spend a lot of time on car safety with my young kids. Don't run out on the road, look before you cross, hold dad's hand in the parking lot and so on. I feel this is one of their most probable dangers they face.

We do a little bit around the area of kidnapping. We teach them to not let anyone take them. They are to scream and yell and kick etc if anyone tries to take them. If the person knows the password, its okay to go with them. Otherwise they are to put up a fight. They know both our phone numbers too. We usually discuss this once a month. Another big safety thing is that it is never okay for secrets. No other adult should tell them to keep a secret between us and them. That's about it. Pretty depressing we even feel motivated to go this far.

Something like this might be considered once they are in school full time.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:35 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by freedogger View Post
So what do parents on this board do to keep their children safe from predators like this? Our kids are 3 & 5 right now.

I realize that the probability of stranger abduction is extremely low. I am the first one that doesn't want to scare the crap out of my kids. Equally important to spend time on things that are really likely to be a danger to them.

As a parent, I spend a lot of time on car safety with my young kids. Don't run out on the road, look before you cross, hold dad's hand in the parking lot and so on. I feel this is one of their most probable dangers they face.

We do a little bit around the area of kidnapping. We teach them to not let anyone take them. They are to scream and yell and kick etc if anyone tries to take them. If the person knows the password, its okay to go with them. Otherwise they are to put up a fight. They know both our phone numbers too. We usually discuss this once a month. Another big safety thing is that it is never okay for secrets. No other adult should tell them to keep a secret between us and them. That's about it. Pretty depressing we even feel motivated to go this far.

Something like this might be considered once they are in school full time.
http://www.gpscentral.ca/products/garmin/gtu10.html

While their is always the chance of a random kidnapping it is pretty remote, generally the kids that end up having bad things happen to them have come from lousy homes, it reduces their defences, what we in the childcare trade call 'lack of boundries'.Difficult to see

One of my foster kids older sister had a 3 year old daughter (mum was about 18 and native) the family turned up one day to visit him with three year old in tow, about 10 minutes after meeting me the 3 year old asked me 'Uncle Nick can you take me to the bathroom?' which the mum and family where fine with, if the kid makes it to 5 without being abused it will be a miricle.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
National Geographic ran a feature on Russia's toughest prisons recently. Basically scumbags like these two are put into a 4x8 cell without windows, behind a 2 foot steel door, where they are allowed to sleep for 8 hours, made to sit on a chair without touching their bed the rest of the time, save for a couple hours of exercise. The exercise is basically the prisoners walking around in a stress position(bent over), with around 8 guards, blindfolded. I actually freaked out when I watched it. Can't imagine having to live like that. For any reason.

Somehow I think even that would be too good for these two pieces of human trash.

I would put them in a modified cell with room enough for a chair, a bed and a toilet and force them to stay there, without ever seeing the outside world again. Make sure there is no way they can commit suicide. 70+ years of that is too kind.
Just watching this now although a slight correction. Exercise is walking around a small room. The bent over part is when the prisoner is transferred between buildings.

Also just reading more about murder penalties in Russia. While the prison conditions in that prison are harsh, the penalties seem really odd. Murder may carry a sentence of 6-15 years, unless there are aggravating circumstances in which case it's 8-20 years, life, or death penalty.

While, in Canada, murder is an automatic life sentence, with different time periods before the prisoner can apply for parole.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:26 AM   #30
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Just watching this now although a slight correction. Exercise is walking around a small room. The bent over part is when the prisoner is transferred between buildings.

Also just reading more about murder penalties in Russia. While the prison conditions in that prison are harsh, the penalties seem really odd. Murder may carry a sentence of 6-15 years, unless there are aggravating circumstances in which case it's 8-20 years, life, or death penalty.

While, in Canada, murder is an automatic life sentence, with different time periods before the prisoner can apply for parole.
Yup but unlike Canadian Prisons, 6 to 20 years in a Russian Prison would be equivalent to going to hell. Bad food, brutal guards, no rights whatsoever for the prisoners, hard labor sentences, oh and the guards don't step in to protect you from your fellow inmates.
. Prison there is just what it is.

By the time you've done your stay in there your pretty much a husk of what you used to be.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #31
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Yup but unlike Canadian Prisons, 6 to 20 years in a Russian Prison would be equivalent to going to hell. Bad food, brutal guards, no rights whatsoever for the prisoners, hard labor sentences, oh and the guards don't step in to protect you from your fellow inmates.
. Prison there is just what it is.

By the time you've done your stay in there your pretty much a husk of what you used to be.
And that has certainly turned Russia into a utopian paradise

While cases like this may call for extremely harsh punishment the issue is that once you open that door a crack it continues to open further and further.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:41 AM   #32
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And that has certainly turned Russia into a utopian paradise

While cases like this may call for extremely harsh punishment the issue is that once you open that door a crack it continues to open further and further.
And I have no problem with opening that crack further with violent offenders and multiple offenders

From Stats Can website about re-offender stats

Quote:
Many repeat offender statistics in Canada are deceptively low. One of the reasons for this is that Corrections Canada excludes provincial statistics from their rates (federal and provincial correctional departments do not currently share information with one another). An offender serving time in a federal jail who had previously served time in a provincial jail would not be labeled a repeat offender. Out of 310,000 convictions in 2002-03 only 4281 offenders were sentenced to a federal prison. In addition, Correctional Services statistics do not take into account conditional sentences or other non-prison sentences, which have grown in popularity. Finally, Correctional Services rates do not include offenders that have been free for more than three years. In light of these factors, it is easy to see just how misleading these statistics can become.
The few studies that do attempt to track prior convictions across jurisdictions peg recidivism at alarmingly high rates. Six out of every ten convicted offenders aged 18 to 25 in 1999/2000 had at least one previous conviction, according to a new pilot study of court-based recidivism in seven provinces and two territories. Among these repeat offenders, 72% had multiple prior convictions. Nine out of ten offenders sentenced to a federal corrections facility (meaning at least a two year sentence) had at least one prior conviction either in adult or youth court. (Source: Statistics Canada)
I'm not talking about dope smokers and first time offenders who have genuinely made a mistake and can be reformed.

I'm talking about child molesters and murderers and people who profit on other peoples misery (pimps, and drug dealers dealing in heavy destructive drugs)
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:00 AM   #33
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And I have no problem with opening that crack further with violent offenders and multiple offenders

From Stats Can website about re-offender stats



I'm not talking about dope smokers and first time offenders who have genuinely made a mistake and can be reformed.

I'm talking about child molesters and murderers and people who profit on other peoples misery (pimps, and drug dealers dealing in heavy destructive drugs)
And I'm pointing out that opening that door leads to innocent people facing the consequences. The history of the death penalty in America provides plenty of evidence.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:02 AM   #34
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And I'm pointing out that opening that door leads to innocent people facing the consequences. The history of the death penalty in America provides plenty of evidence.
In this case, discussion I wasn't talking death penalty.

However as I mentioned before I would have no problem with the death penalty for people like McClintock and possibly her boyfriend depending on evidence

Former Col Williams

Pickton,

Homolka and Bernardo

Etc
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:07 AM   #35
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In this case, discussion I wasn't talking death penalty.

However as I mentioned before I would have no problem with the death penalty for people like McClintock and possibly her boyfriend depending on evidence

Former Col Williams

Pickton,

Homolka and Bernardo

Etc
I don't really see the difference between advocating for the death penalty or what is essentially torture. Would it be okay for someone who was wrongly convicted to be tortured for 10 years?
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:42 AM   #36
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You can't build the prison system and the punishment/rehabilitation system around the chance of a wrongful conviction.

The penalty part of the justice system should be built around the assumption of a proper conviction.

The wrongful conviction question belongs in the courts, not in the execution of the sentence handed down by the courts.

And I don't consider the death sentence to be torture to be honest, I consider it a easier punishment then what some of these scumbags deserve.

Again, is there any doubt that Homolka, Pickton, Olson Williams and Bernardo were guilty?

Homolka got off lightly because of lawyer misconduct, the justice system fails both ways.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:45 AM   #37
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If Michael Rafferty is found not guilty in this trial, he may very well end up dying a lot faster than if he went to jail
Casey Anthony is still alive.

Where is Dexter when you need him?
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:48 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
You can't build the prison system and the punishment/rehabilitation system around the chance of a wrongful conviction.

The penalty part of the justice system should be built around the assumption of a proper conviction.

The wrongful conviction question belongs in the courts, not in the execution of the sentence handed down by the courts.

And I don't consider the death sentence to be torture to be honest, I consider it a easier punishment then what some of these scumbags deserve.

Again, is there any doubt that Homolka, Pickton, Olson Williams and Bernardo were guilty?

Homolka got off lightly because of lawyer misconduct, the justice system fails both ways.
Either do I, I was talking about the Russian system and the like as torture.

The fact is that nations with these brutal prisons do not demonstrate any decrease in crime, in fact they are in societies that have increased levels of violence. I find it hard to believe that is simply a coincidence.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:49 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by freedogger View Post
So what do parents on this board do to keep their children safe from predators like this? Our kids are 3 & 5 right now.

I realize that the probability of stranger abduction is extremely low. I am the first one that doesn't want to scare the crap out of my kids. Equally important to spend time on things that are really likely to be a danger to them.

As a parent, I spend a lot of time on car safety with my young kids. Don't run out on the road, look before you cross, hold dad's hand in the parking lot and so on. I feel this is one of their most probable dangers they face.

We do a little bit around the area of kidnapping. We teach them to not let anyone take them. They are to scream and yell and kick etc if anyone tries to take them. If the person knows the password, its okay to go with them. Otherwise they are to put up a fight. They know both our phone numbers too. We usually discuss this once a month. Another big safety thing is that it is never okay for secrets. No other adult should tell them to keep a secret between us and them. That's about it. Pretty depressing we even feel motivated to go this far.

Something like this might be considered once they are in school full time.
http://www.gpscentral.ca/products/garmin/gtu10.html
This is a tough one. We have our kid in Tae Kwan Do, and when she sometimes wants to quit, i want to tell her about stories like this, but I can't. I just keep telling her the world isn't as safe as she might think it is, and knowing how to defend yourself is a good thing to know.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:09 PM   #40
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Yup but unlike Canadian Prisons, 6 to 20 years in a Russian Prison would be equivalent to going to hell. Bad food, brutal guards, no rights whatsoever for the prisoners, hard labor sentences, oh and the guards don't step in to protect you from your fellow inmates.
. Prison there is just what it is.

By the time you've done your stay in there your pretty much a husk of what you used to be.
Either that or you've been turned into a violent psychopath (if you weren't one already) and then released upon society.

I'd rather see our prisoners in forced manual labour/education programs than punished just for the sake of it. I'm a huge proponent of rehabilitating prisoners. Obviously, some are just psychos and beyond help. Others come from bad backgrounds and both society and the prisoner will be better off if they gain employment and education skills while in prison.

The idea of guards allowing prisoners to participate in violence and crime while in prison is distasteful in every way.
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