Russia invades Ukraine

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Coach

I’m not sure if this is a shot at me maybe thinking it’s simpler than it is or not. But obviously it’s more complicated than that, especially with what I’m sure are pretty sophisticated targeting systems.

What I think might be getting underestimated is the peoples ability to adapt quickly to the systems. They seemed to figure out the Javelins pretty fast. I think an older guard of military officials and commentators under-appreciate the video-game generation’s adaptability to computer controls and are locked into the regimented idea of how long it takes them to fully accredit someone as a tank operator in the US military vs how long it takes a person to learn how to use this machine.

I'm not sure its so much the age of the operators so much as the gear is just much much easier to use, it's like the difference between taking a picture on a modern digital camera versus a 35mm SLR from the 70's

[Coach]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm not sure its so much the age of the operators so much as the gear is just much much easier to use, it's like the difference between taking a picture on a modern digital camera versus a 35mm SLR from the 70's

Yes, this is what I'm getting at. The operators are going to be more comfortable with the modern tech than the older tech. And are they not built for usability? I also think there's some bias about the Ukrainian people's ability to operate "western" tech.

I just have a tough time it really taking months to train and implement them with effectiveness. That's why I wonder if it's a purposeful downplay too.

[GordonBlue]

SpaceX admits blocking Ukrainian troops from using satellite technology

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/09/polit...ogy/index.html

he president of SpaceX revealed the company has taken active steps to prevent Ukrainian forces from using the critical Starlink satellite technology with Ukrainian drones that are a key component of their fight against Russia.

“There are things that we can do to limit their ability to do that,” Gwynne Shotwell told reporters on Wednesday, referencing reports on Starlink and drone use. “There are things that we can do, and have done.”

Starlink was never meant to be used militarily in the way that it has, Shotwell argued, saying the company didn’t foresee how profoundly – and creatively – Ukrainian forces would rely on the technology.

[Frequitude]

...

[Huntingwhale]

New big Russian BMPT “Terminator” tank - big, strong, shoot trees real good!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1619263820878450690



Orc Smash!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1623651172732096513

[nik-]

that'll buff out.

[FlameOn]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1623402301791604736

BBC Reporter: Hello Mr. President. Thank you for coming. I would like to thank you and hug you, but I can't.
Zelensky: Why? Come and hug me.
BBC Reporter: Won't I get shot?!
Zelensky: "Security"

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

New big Russian BMPT “Terminator” tank - big, strong, shoot trees real good!

Orc Smash!

Excellent, another nail in the Russian arms export coffin.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Firebot

That's fair, and sorry if it felt like I was being aggressive in my prior posts. I see Hersh's article as an anti-US and pro-russian propaganda piece and pure fabrication, and the timing of the article and how it propagated right away within Russian sources was way too timely to be coincidental. I suspect it was shared to your group via a Russian source which is why I was asking.

I do think people severely underestimate just how much of influence Russia has on the information being fed to us, and a lot of this propaganda is relayed by Russian sympathizers, grifters and extremists, with far too many in high political and influential positions.

Now it seems that Elon Musk has stopped Starlink use for Ukraine drones claiming they are offensive weapons. Coincidentally this announcement to blind Ukraine and hampering use of one of their best reconnaissance tools happens just as Russia is poised to start a brand new large offensive.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...nt-2023-02-09/

On top of it, my Twitter account got suspended out of the blue, with zero signs that it got hacked. I haven't tweeted or liked anything in years. All I use it for is viewing news on the war, and I did a deep search on how the Hersh article came out yesterday. Guess I dug too deep or something for Musk's liking?

Surely, you can see the humorous irony in making accusations about someone being a conspiracy theorist and then following up with a post implying Elon Musk is manipulating access to Starlink to advantage the Russians in their next attack and that he banned you on Twitter for searching about the Hersh article. Please tell me you see the humor in that.

I don't have any issue with people disagreeing with Hersh or legitimately poking holes in his argument. Discussing it was the point in sharing it. I don't mind people coming at it with different biases either. We all have them and can learn from other viewpoints. Your approach wasn't really that. It was one of personal accusation to discredit someone and police the conversation according to your views. I hope you can recognize that too. It's the type of approach that actually harms quality discourse in a way that is, again, kind of humorously and ironically illiberal.

Anyways, it's all good by me if we can go forward in a mutually respectful manner.

[Azure]

So I'm pretty pro-west. I've clashed with JohnnyB all the time on lots of things. I've even called him a China apologist.

But believing that the US would undertake a mission to blow up a Russian pipeline does not make you anti-west and pro-Russian.

Anyone with a shred of common sense can easily see where the US would benefit if Europe no longer has a source for cheap Russian gas and has to turn to the US to get gas, how the west overall benefits from Russian being crippled from exporting their biggest money maker, how the US benefits from European Industry struggling with high energy prices, etc, etc.

Also, have people forgotten the lengths the US has gone the last 20 years to throw around its weight? Blowing up a Russian pipeline is an easy decision.

And honestly, if Biden DID authorize it? Good for him. About time someone has some balls to stand up to Putin after the EU has been kneeling down in front of him for years.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Azure

So I'm pretty pro-west. I've clashed with JohnnyB all the time on lots of things. I've even called him a China apologist.

But believing that the US would undertake a mission to blow up a Russian pipeline does not make you anti-west and pro-Russian.

Anyone with a shred of common sense can easily see where the US would benefit if Europe no longer has a source for cheap Russian gas and has to turn to the US to get gas, how the west overall benefits from Russian being crippled from exporting their biggest money maker, how the US benefits from European Industry struggling with high energy prices, etc, etc.

Also, have people forgotten the lengths the US has gone the last 20 years to throw around its weight? Blowing up a Russian pipeline is an easy decision.

And honestly, if Biden DID authorize it? Good for him. About time someone has some balls to stand up to Putin after the EU has been kneeling down in front of him for years.

Except in this case the guy has a recent history of blatantly false and incorrect/borderline conspiratorial claims, his source is an unvetted and completely anonymous source, and verifiable claims in this blog post directly conflict with available OSINT data from multiple sources. There is also the odd timing of the post with TASS, the propaganda arm of the Russian government to consider. It seems suspect at best

[afc wimbledon]

The odd thing is this story finally provides Russia with a motive for blowing up the pipelines, it doesn't make any sense for the US to bother as the EU sanctions had shut the pipes off completely, it would never make any sense compared to the risk, after all fixing the pipes if and when the war ends would be really simple, its a short section of pipe in really shallow waters, but at the same time the argument Putin did it to frighten the Germans wasn't particularly convincing either, but Russia doing it in order to blame the US, that actually makes sense.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Coach

Yes, this is what I'm getting at. The operators are going to be more comfortable with the modern tech than the older tech. And are they not built for usability? I also think there's some bias about the Ukrainian people's ability to operate "western" tech.

I just have a tough time it really taking months to train and implement them with effectiveness. That's why I wonder if it's a purposeful downplay too.

A tank isn't like a car.

There is a tonne of crew maintenance that takes place. Without that maintenance the vehicle will breakdown and be useless. The crew needs to know how to do this effortlessly, well as effortlessly as it can be.

There is also the logistical tail that needs to be addressed, tanks need support vehicles/mechanics. While Youtube videos might say you can switch out engines quickly, nothing is ever as quick as it is in a hanger during peace time.

Releasing the tanks into the fight without all that back end support will ultimately shorten the life of the tank.

To your original question, I fully believe that training on Leopards had begun well before the approval to send the tanks was given. I am sure Poland had trained up crews before the ok was give.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

A tank isn't like a car.

There is a tonne of crew maintenance that takes place. Without that maintenance the vehicle will breakdown and be useless. The crew needs to know how to do this effortlessly, well as effortlessly as it can be.

There is also the logistical tail that needs to be addressed, tanks need support vehicles/mechanics. While Youtube videos might say you can switch out engines quickly, nothing is ever as quick as it is in a hanger during peace time.

Releasing the tanks into the fight without all that back end support will ultimately shorten the life of the tank.

To your original question, I fully believe that training on Leopards had begun well before the approval to send the tanks was given. I am sure Poland had trained up crews before the ok was give.

Appreciate the insight.

Curious about your thoughts on (if you know) what sort of streamlining can happen in the training process. I would imagine a certified tank crew training in a modern military at peace time has to go through various levels of testing and certain numbers of target shooting/movement exercises in training, etc.. But that those types of things can have some red tape cut and a very motivated group of operators to learn fast, can lead to a much quicker timeline than what is being discussed in media.

[burn_this_city]

Trenches in a town just south of Bakhmut.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1624088163512725516

[FlamesAddiction]

Lots of intrigue in Moldova today. The pro-Western government that has been in power for 18 months collapsed today. The reasons for the collapse were cited as pressure caused from the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. Energy prices and inflation were mentioned as direct causes, but the final straw seems to be the lack of confidence people have in the government to protect Moldova. They have admitted that Russia missiles have been using Moldovan airspace, and Ukrainian intelligence allegedly provided Moldova with information about an active Russia plot to overthrow the government to install a pro-Russian one.

To the credit of the Moldovan PM who resigned, she does seem to have the country's best interest at heart by acknowledging they need better leadership to deal with these threats.

The president of Moldova is now tasked with appointing a new PM to form the government. I have no idea what his politics are like, but hopefully he isn't compromised by Putin.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ip-2023-02-13/

President Maia Sandu made her comments after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said last week his country had uncovered a Russian intelligence plan "for the destruction of Moldova", and days later the country's government resigned.

She said the plan involved citizens of Russia, Montenegro, Belarus and Serbia entering Moldova to try to spark protests in an attempt to "change the legitimate government to an illegal government controlled by the Russian Federation."

[Cheese]

Ukraine bombs Melitopol airport today.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1624120590872215570

https://twitter.com/user/status/1624132333568679942

[Cheese]

Talk that Ukraine has started an offensive to Kreminna today

https://twitter.com/user/status/1624058038192599042

[CroFlames]

Hopefully the Ukrainians are dug in well and can withstand the predicted offensive. Then turn it around and counter in a decisive victory.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Except in this case the guy has a recent history of blatantly false and incorrect/borderline conspiratorial claims, his source is an unvetted and completely anonymous source, and verifiable claims in this blog post directly conflict with available OSINT data from multiple sources. There is also the odd timing of the post with TASS, the propaganda arm of the Russian government to consider. It seems suspect at best

I don't care about the 'source.'

We talked about the US blowing it up months ago.

My problem is that when someone posts an article talking about it, which they have every right to do, it he instantly gets labelled 'pro-Russian', when in fact there is nothing pro-Russian about saying the US did it.

Just in case everyone forgets, war is not black & white, and propaganda is practiced by both sides.