Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

No, but his incredibly weak frame would certainly contribute to his line mates inability to generate high quality shots as well. Too often people equate Bennett's struggles to his line mates, however, I also see his inability to do anything with the puck in the offensive zone as a huge hindrance to everyone else on the ice.

Moving forward, there is no longer any excuse.
We'll see how it plays out.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

No, but his incredibly weak frame would certainly contribute to his line mates inability to generate high quality shots as well. Too often people equate Bennett's struggles to his line mates, however, I also see his inability to do anything with the puck in the offensive zone as a huge hindrance to everyone else on the ice.

Just so I get your view ...

His shooting percentage is because he has a weak shot.
His linemates shooting percentage is because of Bennett's weak frame.

Yet ...

His shot attempts per 60 minutes is up 47%
His chances per 60 minutes is up is up 47%

You may have an axe to grind here ...

Did he injure Mike Smith too?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

No, but his incredibly weak frame would certainly contribute to his line mates inability to generate high quality shots as well. Too often people equate Bennett's struggles to his line mates, however, I also see his inability to do anything with the puck in the offensive zone as a huge hindrance to everyone else on the ice.

He was a hindrance to who?

Jaromir Jagr?
Troy Brouwer?
Alex Chiasson?
Garnet Hathaway?
Kris Versteeg?

What good NHL player has "suffered" under this horrible Sam Bennett reign of terror?

Certainly not Mark Jankowski, who battled inconsistency as a young NHL player much in the same way Bennett has. Although Jankowski had the benefit of playing with Sam Bennett, who is a better line-mate than any of the players Bennett actually suffered through in 2016/2017.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Bizarre sequence of posts by Hot Flatus.

Why couldn’t you have let this thread die Bingo? After 57 pages of bickering I don’t think there’s anything new to say

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just so I get your view ...

His shooting percentage is because he has a weak shot.
His linemates shooting percentage is because of Bennett's weak frame.

Yet ...

His shot attempts per 60 minutes is up 47%
His chances per 60 minutes is up is up 47%

You may have an axe to grind here ...

Did he injure Mike Smith too?

How convenient you can always find a way to cherry pick comments to make yourself seem like a white knight, Bingo. You know exactly what I'm getting at and that is the fact that Bennett's statistical misfortune of playing with players that aren't top 6 on the Flames depth chart works both ways.

Teammates he's been playing with certainly aren't being buoyed by Sam Bennett's ability to drive possession, make intelligent plays with the puck and compete physically with most players that are far stronger than him. If Bennett were a little better, some of these weak line mates would be too....which was all I was getting at.

I'll be the first to admit I am done with Sam Bennett as a Flame unless he shows a significant turn around this year, but that has no bearing on the fact that good or bad, any hockey player has the ability drag the rest of his line mates up or down on any given night.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Moving forward, there is no longer any excuse.
We'll see how it plays out.

No there really isn't and I would expect this kid to come out with something to prove the first month of the season, however, never underestimate the ability of the Bennett backers to produce new excuses for him at a moments notice.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

No there really isn't and I would expect this kid to come out with something to prove the first month of the season, however, never underestimate the ability of the Bennett backers to produce new excuses for him at a moments notice.

Did Sam Bennett pee in your corn flakes or something? Yeesh, there are some real anger issues going on here.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Great username

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

How convenient you can always find a way to cherry pick comments to make yourself seem like a white knight, Bingo. You know exactly what I'm getting at and that is the fact that Bennett's statistical misfortune of playing with players that aren't top 6 on the Flames depth chart works both ways.

Teammates he's been playing with certainly aren't being buoyed by Sam Bennett's ability to drive possession, make intelligent plays with the puck and compete physically with most players that are far stronger than him. If Bennett were a little better, some of these weak line mates would be too....which was all I was getting at.

I'll be the first to admit I am done with Sam Bennett as a Flame unless he shows a significant turn around this year, but that has no bearing on the fact that good or bad, any hockey player has the ability drag the rest of his line mates up or down on any given night.

Well that's a little touchy.

White knight? How did I cherry pick? I posted an article and it highlights his shooting percentage and on ice percentage are down while his shot atempts and scoring chances are up.

Those are facts.

You chose to bury the player against the stats.

I'm not a white knight, I've even keeled ... something that has driven ditch to ditch people like yourself crazy for 20 years counting now.

Sorry logic frustrates you so much.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

Great username

Yep. Apt as well. His posts often resemble his username from my perspective.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just so I get your view ...

His shooting percentage is because he has a weak shot.
His linemates shooting percentage is because of Bennett's weak frame.

Yet ...

His shot attempts per 60 minutes is up 47%
His chances per 60 minutes is up is up 47%

You may have an axe to grind here ...

Did he injure Mike Smith too?

I'm trying to find the source data but Corsica doesn't seem to refresh when I try to look for the stats for the Flames. Is there another site to look this up?

How do they define scoring chances? Is it any shot within some prescribed area on the ice? Would be interesting if the data shows that Bennett's scoring chances are higher than guys like Monahan, Tkachuk or even Ferland.

The eye test from watching games constantly tells me that Bennett is a high energy player who doesn't seem to think the game at a higher level compared to his peers and doesn't have the capability to slow the game down which would lead to better opportunities such as finding an open teammate or finding open ice to release a better shot.

Guys like Monahan and Tkachuk especially, get numerous opportunities where they'll hold on to the puck showing their patience before firing it from a better angle or position or in Tkachuk's case, sliding a pass over to a more open teammate.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well that's a little touchy.

White knight? How did I cherry pick? I posted an article and it highlights his shooting percentage and on ice percentage are down while his shot atempts and scoring chances are up.

Those are facts.

You chose to bury the player against the stats.

I'm not a white knight, I've even keeled ... something that has driven ditch to ditch people like yourself crazy for 20 years counting now.

Sorry logic frustrates you so much.

I never ditched stats at all and that is exactly why you're cherry picking when you respond with a completely generalized version of my original post. I merely suggested that some of the statistical misfortune, like his line mates, works both ways. But continue to pretend that I went on some anti-stats tirade to slander Sam Bennett if that makes you feel more important. I couldn't care less.

Not sure what you're getting at with your classy ditch-to-ditch comment either? Pretty lame coming from someone who is a figure of the community that should be trying to foster debate. I actually was hoping to discuss why a player and/or his line mates may be struggling to generate a better SH% beyond simply "it was luck" and and this is the route you take?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I never ditched stats at all and that is exactly why you're cherry picking when you respond with a completely generalized version of my original post. I merely suggested that some of the statistical misfortune, like his line mates, works both ways. But continue to pretend that I went on some anti-stats tirade to slander Sam Bennett if that makes you feel more important. I couldn't care less.

Not sure what you're getting at with your classy ditch-to-ditch comment either? Pretty lame coming from someone who is a figure of the community that should be trying to foster debate. I actually was hoping to discuss why a player and/or his line mates may be struggling to generate a better SH% beyond simply "it was luck" and and this is the route you take?

There are plenty of stats to suggest Bennett isn't getting it done, but the shooting percentage of his linemates being blamed "on his incredibly weak frame" is a huge stretch, one that shows a bias in my mind.

Not sure why that makes you so angry?

On ice shooting percentage as well as save percentage is one of the best indicators of luck, because it transcends an individual's skill to that of his goaltender and others on the ice and what they get done.

Bennett has been a disappointment, but this look suggests maybe a bounce or two going his way may return him to a player that can contribute to a team's performance. His single biggest issue is confidence, so a change in said luck just may get the ball rolling.

And these aren not an example of "never underestimate the ability of the Bennett backers to produce new excuses for him at a moments notice"

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There are plenty of stats to suggest Bennett isn't getting it done, but the shooting percentage of his linemates being blamed "on his incredibly weak frame" is a huge stretch, one that shows a bias in my mind.

Not sure why that makes you so angry?

On ice shooting percentage as well as save percentage is one of the best indicators of luck, because it transcends an individual's skill to that of his goaltender and others on the ice and what they get done.

Bennett has been a disappointment, but this look suggests maybe a bounce or two going his way may return him to a player that can contribute to a team's performance. His single biggest issue is confidence, so a change in said luck just may get the ball rolling.

And these aren not an example of "never underestimate the ability of the Bennett backers to produce new excuses for him at a moments notice"

I'm not angry in the least, perhaps tired of reading the same cyclical jargon about Bennett instead of diving into the actual meat and potatoes of what the hell do the Flames do to get him going this season and I completely agree, confidence is front and center. It's incredibly upsetting to think that the Flames could lose out on the highest pick in team history for nothing if the first half of this season doesn't go his way.

I did not intend to blame all of his line mates production on him either. The intent was to state that his weak frame is a contributing factor to his lines success offensively. Would a stronger Bennett not give lackluster players more time and space to get open, make plays, get pucks on net effectively? Maybe I expect too much out of him at this point and this is the problem. I still see him as a guy that should be elevating everyone he plays with as opposed to being dogged by anyone that is deemed inferior.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I'm not angry in the least, perhaps tired of reading the same cyclical jargon about Bennett instead of diving into the actual meat and potatoes of what the hell do the Flames do to get him going this season and I completely agree, confidence is front and center.

I did not intend to blame all of his line mates production on him either. The intent was to state that his weak frame is a contributing factor to his lines success offensively. Would a stronger Bennett not give lackluster players more time and space to get open, make plays, get pucks on net effectively?

Good ...

But did the article I post show "cyclical jargon" and avoidance of "diving into the actual meat and potatoes"?

Simple stats show the guy generated more shot attempts and scoring chances, but he and his linemates had a finishing issue last year. That's a good sign, and it's not an excuse, or jargon.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Good ...

But did the article I post show "cyclical jargon" and avoidance of "diving into the actual meat and potatoes"?

Simple stats show the guy generated more shot attempts and scoring chances, but he and his linemates had a finishing issue last year. That's a good sign, and it's not an excuse, or jargon.

I'm not trying to single you out with that line, simply referring to the Bennett topic in general.

To me it doesn't seem like enough is being discussed as far as how the staff will avoid another season marred by finishing issues for Bennett and the entire team to be honest. If the finishing doesn't improve, is it a line juggling, personnel or a system tactic that will eventually produce tangible results? I think they are good enough to be a playoff team this year without a ton of secondary scoring, but with three lines rolling, this team is a top 5 team in the league next season.

My line of thought is maybe you just swing for the fences and try playing Bennett with Backlund and Neal right off the bat as the second line. This gives both him and Backlund a huge boost in the oiSH% department and a fresh start. This assumes Tkachuk sticks with Monahan and Johnny of course but would give the kid a big vote of confidence and a proven sniper on the wing to take the pressure of scoring off of him, at least for the first few games.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I'm not trying to single you out with that line, simply referring to the Bennett topic in general.

To me it doesn't seem like enough is being discussed as far as how the staff will avoid another season marred by finishing issues for Bennett and the entire team to be honest. If the finishing doesn't improve, is it a line juggling, personnel or a system tactic that will eventually produce tangible results? This team needs secondary scoring from guys like Frolik, Bennett, Jankowski, Ryan and even Backlund in order to get where I think we all envision them going.

I think they are good enough to be a playoff team this year without it, but with three lines rolling, this team is a top 5 team in the league next season.

I'd be more concerned if they ...

a) did nothing
b) change some players but brought the coach back
c) changed the coach and kept the same roster

but since they changed everything they should see an uptick from better on the rush personnel, a system change, and law of averages giving them a bounce or two more this season.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am curious as to how this team responds in terms of SH% from the 'bottom 9'. Lines 2-4 were atrocious for at least long stretches in putting the puck in the net. I still believe that with so many players regressing there, it points to a systemic issue, which probably then starts getting into players' heads and makes them lose confidence.


Hopefully this season starts off with a bang, and we can see how Bennett responds. No need to bicker back and forth until then. New coach with new systems, possibility of new line-mates and roles... Bennett and Brodie are the two players that I am the most eager to see this upcoming season.

[ComixZone]

Bennett has been debated a lot around here, and I still believe there's plenty of evidence to suggest there's a very good NHL'er in there and that as opportunity and circumstance improve, we'll all see that - but it also introduces another interesting question...

With how the Flames are "balanced" now, what are the expectations for Sam Bennett in 2018/2019? Knowing that he'll be a mainstay on the 3rd line that can play up and down the line-up but likely won't see much in the way of PP time unless he knocks out some of the more established veterans - what's a realistic hope for point production?

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am curious as to how this team responds in terms of SH% from the 'bottom 9'. Lines 2-4 were atrocious for at least long stretches in putting the puck in the net. I still believe that with so many players regressing there, it points to a systemic issue, which probably then starts getting into players' heads and makes them lose confidence.


Hopefully this season starts off with a bang, and we can see how Bennett responds. No need to bicker back and forth until then. New coach with new systems, possibility of new line-mates and roles... Bennett and Brodie are the two players that I am the most eager to see this upcoming season.

Good post. I'm with you on Brodie and Bennett. Pre-Gully, these two players looks fantastic. Not just good, but fantastic. Bennett looked poised to explode, and Brodie was a top-end defenceman. During Gully's time here, no two players struggled more than Brodie and Bennett - both of which were viewed as key pieces under Hartley moving forward. It happens - certain coaches like certain players, certain players excel under certain coaches and struggle under others. If it really was a mismatch between Gully and Brodie/Bennett, we may see two very improved players under Peters...and we may also see some players who played great under Gully struggle under Peters.

[The Boy Wonder]

Can we please just wait and see what happens under Peters and his system instead of debating how Bennett's stats under GG were a result of either his lack of skill or GGs usage.

Absolutely insane topic to argue in the middle of July