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Old 03-21-2018, 09:59 AM   #41
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I don't think anecdotes really work in the context of such a broad topic
USA has at least triple the incarceration rate as the UK. So it's not anecdotal anymore. Which is still ironic because you used someone being jailed for a nazi pug as a reason but that's about as anecdotal as it comes.

The political system is abusing laws and regulation to vote suppress. Gerrymandering, voter ID, voter roll purges, even removing the ability to vote for convicted criminals.

Look at the problems associated with DACA and Trump's deportation guidelines. I guess that depends on how you view a "free" country should treat non-citizens.

Even the tax issue is a myth. Several of the countries listed have less taxes.

I'm not saying that the USA isn't a free country or even near the top. I'm just arguing it being the most free country in the world. It doesn't stack up anymore.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:09 AM   #42
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Yes, what he said and done is offensive, but if it was a joke that was intended to be private (although it got posted online?), then that's not grounds to get charged and put in jail for.

The world is so soft.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:20 AM   #43
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Yes, what he said and done is offensive, but if it was a joke that was intended to be private (although it got posted online?), then that's not grounds to get charged and put in jail for.

The world is so soft.
Regardless of whether it was intended to be private or public, it was a joke. The fact that he was even arrested for this is beyond ridiculous and honestly pretty unsettling.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:47 AM   #44
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I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but IMO there's a big difference between making a joke about nazis, which is totally fair game and has a proud comedic tradition, vs. saying the most offensive thing you can about Jews; it doesn't seem like the nazis are the punchline here as much as the Jews are. It doesn't really work as satire because actual nazis try to package fascist and anti-semitic ideas as viral memes in much the same way. At some point the line between fascist viral memes and satires of those same memes disappears, which is what the fascists want. I'm sure in many corners of the internet they're cheering the fact that a video with the repeated line 'gas the jews' has been seen (and apparently laughed at), and now defended by so many people. It lowers the bar for what they can get away with saying and posting. They love the defense "it's just a joke!" to whatever racist or anti-semitic vitriol they spew.

I can accept that this was probably intended as a private joke with no ill-will that got out of hand and should be sentenced with that in mind; but I also wouldn't want to see courts set a precedent that allows 'just a joke' as a defense to what would otherwise be hate speech.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:56 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by octothorp View Post
I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but IMO there's a big difference between making a joke about nazis, which is totally fair game and has a proud comedic tradition, vs. saying the most offensive thing you can about Jews; it doesn't seem like the nazis are the punchline here as much as the Jews are. It doesn't really work as satire because actual nazis try to package fascist and anti-semitic ideas as viral memes in much the same way. At some point the line between fascist viral memes and satires of those same memes disappears, which is what the fascists want. I'm sure in many corners of the internet they're cheering the fact that a video with the repeated line 'gas the jews' has been seen (and apparently laughed at), and now defended by so many people. It lowers the bar for what they can get away with saying and posting. They love the defense "it's just a joke!" to whatever racist or anti-semitic vitriol they spew.

I can accept that this was probably intended as a private joke with no ill-will that got out of hand and should be sentenced with that in mind; but I also wouldn't want to see courts set a precedent that allows 'just a joke' as a defense to what would otherwise be hate speech.
I kind of agree. What would the public opinion of this guy be if he instead had the dog react to him saying "Hang the N*****S", or "Kill the gays". I don't think there would be as much support for him then
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:56 AM   #46
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...Meechan makes it clear that it's a joke, it's clear that the comedy is in how over the top and ridiculous it is to make a cute dog do these things...
This all of a sudden libertarian attitude of responses from certain posters who are known to be staunch non-libertarians otherwise is really amusing.

OK, let's turn up the volume a bit. Pick one of this forum's everyone's favourite non-controversial posters. Say, he jokingly starts "Gas the Arabs" thread and posts a cute dog video in it. How far and how well would that go with the forum admins?

Turn it up a bit more. Say, a known conservative Canadian politician makes a "Gas the Arabs" post on his/her social media platform and supports it with a cute video to piss off his girlfriend. How libertarian do you think these same posters here would be in their verdicts?

This guy is a degenerate on so many levels that I have zero sympathy for what had happened to him. Reminds me of the two idiots who smuggled cocaine and then posted the proof on YouTube. Just much, much dumber.

And I do share a lot of libertarian views.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by octothorp View Post
I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but IMO there's a big difference between making a joke about nazis, which is totally fair game and has a proud comedic tradition, vs. saying the most offensive thing you can about Jews; it doesn't seem like the nazis are the punchline here as much as the Jews are. It doesn't really work as satire because actual nazis try to package fascist and anti-semitic ideas as viral memes in much the same way. At some point the line between fascist viral memes and satires of those same memes disappears, which is what the fascists want. I'm sure in many corners of the internet they're cheering the fact that a video with the repeated line 'gas the jews' has been seen (and apparently laughed at), and now defended by so many people. It lowers the bar for what they can get away with saying and posting. They love the defense "it's just a joke!" to whatever racist or anti-semitic vitriol they spew.

I can accept that this was probably intended as a private joke with no ill-will that got out of hand and should be sentenced with that in mind; but I also wouldn't want to see courts set a precedent that allows 'just a joke' as a defense to what would otherwise be hate speech.
The neo-nazis will probably gain more from this conviction than right to make the video. It'll fit into their persecution complex, and they'll be able to use this as an example of how Jews control the media and courts.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:00 PM   #48
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I think the context really matters. The context is that he was training his girlfriend's dog to react positively to extremely awful things for humorous effect. Very immature, offensive humor, yes. But to claim that he's actively promoting the genocide of a people is quite the stretch. Hell, the video is even still up on youtube and they wouldn't continue hosting a video that is a call to genocide.

It's also troubling that the police decided to arrest this dude in the absence of any complaints beforehand. Also they informed the media of his impending arrest before he was aware of any charges so that the media could get good footage of the perp walk. An orchestrated show to the rest of the public to show that you can't say offensive things or else big brother will make an example out of you.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:08 PM   #49
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Pick one of this forum's everyone's favourite non-controversial posters. Say, he jokingly starts "Gas the Arabs" thread and posts a cute dog video in it. How far and how well would that go with the forum admins?
You're comparing getting banned from an internet forum to being tried in a court of law? This post cannot possibly get any dumber.
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Turn it up a bit more. Say, a known conservative Canadian politician makes a "Gas the Arabs" post on his/her social media platform and supports it with a cute video to piss off his girlfriend. How libertarian do you think these same posters here would be in their verdicts?
... It seems I was wrong, it can. Are you really incapable of distinguishing support for the content of a joke from the view that making a joke should not result in prosecution? Seriously? The posters you're referencing would be entirely consistent, in that they would all say that said known Canadian politician should not be arrested for his video.
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This guy is a degenerate on so many levels that I have zero sympathy for what had happened to him.
And we've reached the zenith of blinding stupidity here, with the "this guy is bad, so I don't care if his rights were violated". Seriously, people like you, who only want basic rights to apply in the easy cases, are among the biggest threats to the rule of law.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:15 PM   #50
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An orchestrated show to the rest of the public to show that you can't say offensive things or else big brother will make an example out of you.
Exactly. The UK is a place now, where you can't make subjectively offensive jokes without risk of arrest, but apparently you can walk around central London while wearing an ISIS flag with zero consequences. It boggles the mind. Citizens either have free speech, or they don't. You can't pick & choose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...central-london
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:19 PM   #51
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Law enforcement in UK seems to be getting increasingly ideological, just this week there's been stories of a canadian far right journalist being barred from entering the country (Lauren Southern), a man is going to jail over nazi pug jokes and stories of police allowing massive rape gangs to go unchallenged because they were muslim and the police didn't want to look racist: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8261846.html
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:33 PM   #52
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Earlier generations thought the best way to confront #######s like the Nazis was to make fun of them. Expose them for the pitiful creeps they were. You don't react to a clown wearing jackboots and ranting about racial contamination by crossing yourself and clutching a crucifix like he's the devil. That only gives him power. No, you deflate his self-important pomp with ridicule. Expose him for the insecure loser that he is. Why should that tactic be any less legitimate today?
This whole story reminded me of an article I read years ago about a Finnish man who trained his dog to perform the Nazi salute to mock Nazi Germany in WWII. It worked in getting under their skin:

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A Finnish dog which gave Nazi salutes so annoyed Germany's World War II government that it launched a campaign against its owner.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-12139150
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:47 PM   #53
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NSFW!


Police in the UK better arrest Sacha Baron Cohen next if they are to use the same logic.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:18 PM   #54
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...<...>...
Wow, and I had you as one of the more civilized posters here that are interested in a debate rather than name calling and labeling. I was wrong. Well, you can go and f... yourself then.

The key message in my post was that some jokes are not meant to be received lightly, no matter where they come from and that "jokers" are ought to expect the strong reaction. Your reaction to that message is rather dumb (and, honestly, puzzling). When Larry David jokes about dating at a concentration camp, that's a joke; yes, a questionable joke and an offensive joke to some people; but it's still a joke. "Gas the Jews" as a joke is indefensible.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:19 PM   #55
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"Gas the Jews" as a joke is totally defensible, did you see the video? It was hilarious.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:21 PM   #56
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nm

Last edited by Ashasx; 03-21-2018 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:22 PM   #57
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The key message in my post was that some jokes are not meant to be received lightly, no matter where they come from and that "jokers" are ought to expect the strong reaction.
Strong reaction does not, or should not, include criminal conviction.
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Your reaction to that message is rather dumb (and, honestly, puzzling). When Larry David jokes about dating at a concentration camp, that's a joke; yes, a questionable joke and an offensive joke to some people; but it's still a joke. "Gas the Jews" as a joke is indefensible.
Who gets to decide what's indefensible as a joke? There's poor taste, there's even consequences to poor taste (banned from forums, loss of job, etc.) but there should not be criminal conviction.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:30 PM   #58
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spoiled so i don't offend


Spoiler!
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:32 PM   #59
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...
Who gets to decide what's indefensible as a joke? ...
In this case, the court did and decided it was indefensible:

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Meechan "knew what he was doing" he said, adding: "It is self-evident that the material is antisemitic."
He did not believe Meechan's defence that the video was made as a private joke to annoy his girlfriend and he pointed out that he had "not taken any steps to prevent the video being shared publicly".
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:39 PM   #60
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I don't think it's reasonable for a citizen to interpret what is or is not grossly offensive, and they face the consequence of prison if they choose wrongly.

As a result, people become afraid to speak. I don't think it was reasonable for Meechan to have known that he could spend a year in jail for the video. The video had 3 million views and nobody complained to the police. How is that grossly offensive?
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