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Old 03-22-2018, 10:51 AM   #201
CalgaryFan1988
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Originally Posted by kukkudo View Post
I said it before Flames have the most overrated defence in the NHL.
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Well, for me, the Flames most overrated defenseman is Dougie Hamilton. He might have the most goals of any NHL defenseman this year but I don't think he brings much else to the table. He is a pylon most nights, great photo bombs though.

Personally, I would move him out as I think at this point, he would bring back the most value.

Then put Brodie back up with Gio, and Andersson, Kulak, Hamonic, and Stone are enough to fill out the last two pairings.
Flames lose 4-0, people bitch about defence. Makes sense.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:54 AM   #202
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Flames lose 4-0, people bitch about defence. Makes sense.

Exactly, because they are also part of the problem. People are bitching about our goalie, about our offense and about our defnse.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:57 AM   #203
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Flames lose 4-0, people bitch about defence. Makes sense.
It’s a bit ridiculous I think. It wasn’t the defence’s fault, Gulutzan specifically coaches the team to not score any goals so how can we blame the D? He says every single day in practice “Boys I want you to fire every shot you take from a terrible angle and if that’s not possible you send it directly in the opposing goalie’s chest. The underlying numbers show we’re about to go on a tear here.”

Blaming the defence is silly.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:12 AM   #204
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Based off the poll in the off-season (after Bishop was traded), the top 3 choices were Fleury (35.04%), Raanta (12.48%), and Grubauer (11.68%)...all of which have a much better save percentage than Smith this year and could have been part of a longer-term solution.
The only one that has been better than Smith is Fleury. Fleury would have cost more, and no one could have predicted that he would play this well.

Next year is another season.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:26 AM   #205
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Dougie can score but i would like to know how many goals is he responsible for with all his penalties? For a top pairing Dman he sure makes alot of bad plays in his own zone. Gio saves his butt alot.

Last edited by Kybb79; 03-22-2018 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:27 AM   #206
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Overrated defence in general not talking about this game. But when you have that much money tied up in defence you better make the playoffs. That D on paper can have a average goalie and do fine.

Coming into the season people had the Flames D to be one of the best in the league. Flames have lots of issues coaching, forwards etc but the D is at fault too
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:40 AM   #207
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I think the biggest problem defensively is that the D back in so far that they allow the attacking player to walk right into the slot to take a shot. It's astounding how far they back in without pressuring the attacker.

There are other issues of course, but this one drives me insane. Especially since it is the exact opposite of what Gulutzan said his system would be when he was hired.
This. This SOOOO much.

I shake my head at people who call Hartley's system terrible defensively. I criticized it because I thought it was too passive, and thought that Gulutzan (as both Enoch and I seem to remember) was going to bring in a more aggressive defensive system. Have the Flames been better defensively under Gulutzan, especially when you keep in mind the massively upgraded D? I also think the forwards under Hartley were better defensively and would rotate with less errors when defencemen pinched.

The defence this team has is sick. I don't care what people are saying. This is a back-end full of thoroughbreds, and Kulak coming out this year and being so damn poised with the puck was one of the highlights for me this season.

Gulutzan has almost nullified the defencemen. He is not making as much use of them offensively like Hartley did. He is not getting them to play better defence than Hartley.

Hartley's passive shot-blocking was REASONABLY effective, but I thought that it had a lot of room for improvement. Hartley made sure the defencemen were clogging-up the lanes, but allowed more shots from the outside (so systematically, it looked worse than it really was in advanced metrics). As soon as a defencemen got it, they moved the puck up the ice - not backwards, not D-D-D.... UP THE ICE. Brodie was a GOD under this system. Flames learned to place their sticks in lanes at all times as well.

Gulutzan has removed the shot-blocking. Makes defencemen instead slide by the goalie (I don't find this horrible - but then they get out of position if they don't actually stop the puck, and give up a grade A chance). I find Gulutzan's system seems even more passive at contesting the zone entry. They don't block, but they do chase a bit more - but then they seem to get drawn out of position more, giving up a grade-A chance at times.

It isn't tighter defensively. Yes, they allow a tonne less shots, but they seem to allow grade A scoring chances. I am not going to say they are high-danger chances - that is a discredit to how good these chances are - breakaways, uncontested tap-ins, etc. Shooters having time and space in home plate.

Give me a coach that will use what the strength of this team is - Defence. Give me a coach that can get this team to play well in their end AND still have that quick transition game that this assembled D-corps is tailor-made for.

People say that Hartley's Flames making the playoffs was a 'fluke year'. No. Look at the season before that. Look at why Ward picked them to make the playoffs the following year. Most 1 goal games. How many times did they get blown out? Cali on this board even picked them (and got mocked) to make the playoffs that year. They played well defensively, and were starting to create this lethal transition game. Doubly impressive considering the actual fricken roster that people seem to forget.

This isn't a "I wish Hartley was still here". This is meant to be a damning statement that Hartley was let-go so that this team could improve. The talent has greatly improved (especially in net). The Division has gotten worse. We should have seen the Flames comfortably in a playoff position this year. How then, does it feel like Gulutzan has been a step-down from Hartley? DEFENSIVELY!

Want an interesting stat to chew on?

2013-14 Calgary Flames
GA/G - 2.90

2017-18 Calgary Flames
GA/GP - 2.95

Ok, so scoring is up. That 2013 Flames team was 7th last, and this year's is 16th last. It is difficult to compare years across the board. However, you are looking at a fricken rebuilding team with a patchwork of defencmen. Giordano playing as a #1 for the first time in his career. Brodie coming out of nowhere. Russell - a waiver wire clear who the Flames traded for - on the 2nd pairing. Wideman 'can't play defence' was playing great defensively. No shut-down line (Backlund was still only really emerging as shut-down center, and there was nobody else). Stajan was the #1 center, and he only played 63 games!

That team was allowing less GA/GP than this year's version. That's pretty atrocious when you think about. Factor this in:

Karri Ramo
Reto Berra
Joey MacDonald
Joni Ortio

These were your goalies that year. Fresh from the KHL Ramo adjusting to the NHL rink, I may add.

Anyone that wants to say that this defensive structure has been more sound than it was under Hartley needs to dig a little deeper.

Still not convinced? How about Shots Against per game played?

2013-14 Flames:
28.6 shots against/game. That was 8th BEST in the NHL.

2017-18 Flames:
31.4 shots against/game. 10th best in the NHL.

Again, the Flames are allowing more shots, even though Hartley's system was designed to give-up those low-percentage perimeter shots. They also fell 2 spots in the rankings. Once again, that is a comparison between this team and the 4th worst team in the NHL - a rebuilding year.

The results don't add up. This was supposed to be a strong possession team (which it most definitely is) that is stingy giving up chances (which it most definitely isn't), and who could move the puck so fast.

Instead, we get a team that has a strong possession game and not much else. They are arguably WORSE at playing defence.

I really have to illustrate this to really make the point hit home. Here are the 2013-14 Calgary Flames defencemen, including the games played:

64 - Giordano
81 - Brodie (his second full season at the age of 23)
68 - Russell
46 - Wideman
82 - Butler
56 - Smid
14 - Wotherspoon
10 - Billins
45 - Shane O'Brien
9 - Breen
14 - Derek Smith
4 - Cundari

Take a long look at those names. Remember them playing? Remember how fricken terrible some of those names were? Please compare them to this year's roster, and try to rationalize why that group allowed LESS shots on net. Please tell me how Hartley's inept defensive system was the 10th best in the NHL at limiting the puck reaching the goalies that year.

Anyone that thinks that the Flames have a better coach with a better system need to take another look - offensively AND defensively.

Massively upgraded team vs a rebuilding team. The numbers aren't far off. Some numbers were actually better for that rebuilding squad.

Gulutzan has to go. Flames need a coach that is better than Hartley, not worse. Flames have worse now. That's reality, especially when considering you have a massively upgraded and more experienced roster from the forwards to the defence to the goaltending. Massively upgraded, massively more experienced. Much less turn-over and injuries too to really drive this point home.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:46 AM   #208
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The "defenders backing-in and passing across the goalie crease" is a set GG play. It's awful. Other teams know about it now though so they hang around the slot area trying to intercept the pass. Some teams (like Anaheim) even send in two players because they know that our D back in so far (and no stretch pass is ever done) that there's no chance of a quick offensive transition from the Flames.

Sigh.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:46 AM   #209
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Dougie can score but i would like to know how many goals is he responsible for with all his penalties? For a top pairing Dman he sure makes alot of bad plays in his own zone. Gio saves his butt alot.
Have you even watched Brodie play this year? He gets beaten wide at least 4 times a game. Our defense definitely has a black hole, but it's not Hamilton.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:49 AM   #210
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I'm genuinely shocked that considering their position, the team has come out with the results they have in the last few games.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:06 PM   #211
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Have you even watched Brodie play this year? He gets beaten wide at least 4 times a game. Our defense definitely has a black hole, but it's not Hamilton.
Brodie has had a bad year, yes. But he is a guy that 2 and 3 years ago was often the best player on the ice....he has shown that he can be an excellent 2 way defenseman. The question is has he just regressed hopelessly, or between a new coach and him sorting out whatever is going on with his game, can he regain his prior form?

Hamilton has caused a ton of goals against as well, but has never shown the ability to play an all around game. I don’t want to ignore his scoring ability, but he is very one dimensional, and you have to decide if his strength makes up for his deficiencies.

And compared to Brodie, he has never shown that ability to be a great 2 way dominant player.

Finally, you could probably get a good return for Brodie, but I tend to think the return for Hamilton would be bigger due to the goal scoring.

But anyone hating (fairly) on Brodie for his D zone play, has to be equally concerned for Hamilton’s inability to improve his decision making and play where it comes to preventing goals.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:19 PM   #212
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Based off the poll in the off-season (after Bishop was traded), the top 3 choices were Fleury (35.04%), Raanta (12.48%), and Grubauer (11.68%)...all of which have a much better save percentage than Smith this year and could have been part of a longer-term solution.
It has to be noted that Treliving was in talks for trades for both Fleury and Bishop so things haven't worked in his favour when it comes to getting a starter but it's not been for lack of effort.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:21 PM   #213
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Each loss hurts even more cause the Islanders have our 1st round pick . I highly doubt we can sign Johnny T, but that's what it will take to make this season feel better.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:41 PM   #214
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Philly finished 19th in the league last year, ended up drafting 1st overall.

Flames currently sit 19th in the league.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:44 PM   #215
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I would be surprised if any goalie that was available last summer could do any better than Smith in the environment that existed on the ice. Smith did everything he could to win games and the rest of the team did not do their share. Swap Fleury and Smith and I'm sure the Pacific standings would be the exact same as they are now.

If we want a 1a and 1b situation in Calgary next year I would look at Cam Ward for a year or two. I was hoping that Ward might be a pissibility for the start of this past season but it didn't happen. He is old and not as good as he once was but with Smith/Ward doing a roughly 50/30 dplit I think it would be a solid tandem. Of course that still leaves the Flames in a bad situation in 2 or 3 years with no young starter. I wonder if Vegas would be willing to move Subban. I like that kid and I think he could develop into a good #1.
That's really not what the original post was about. The point is that there were other options with the ability to be a long-term solution and we spent assets on a stop-gap who exceeded expectations for the most part but isn't likely to be a solution beyond next year. Given the focus was so short-term and we missed the playoffs, I still see the Smith trade as another miss for Treliving. I like Hamonic. I like Smith. I don't mind Stone. But taken together, what we spent and the aftermath when we didn't make the playoffs, how can you not conclude Treliving misread things and had a bad summer last year?

The consensus was that Treliving did great last summer and George McPhee was a fool. What can you say? The consensus was wrong.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:45 PM   #216
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Re: draft lottery

Thankfully its random!

* runs lottery sim *

Well crap.

(full disclosure: I did run it and it came up BUF, NJD, OTT)
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:46 PM   #217
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Philly finished 19th in the league last year, ended up drafting 1st overall.

Flames currently sit 19th in the league.
And your point is?

I will definitely go and look up last week's winning Lotto Max numbers and play those, because low percentage events routinely occur over and over again.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:48 PM   #218
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The pick is already gone. It's not worth it to worry about what it will become. Hopefully, Brad has learned a valuable lesson to not trade a 1st without lottery protection.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:49 PM   #219
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Just give me a coach that plays brodie on the side he exceled at. Still the stupidest thing ever
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:59 PM   #220
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And your point is?

I will definitely go and look up last week's winning Lotto Max numbers and play those, because low percentage events routinely occur over and over again.
Point is I see those odds getting better as the flames will probably struggle to win half of their remaining games.

The flames have played more games than anyone below them in the standings and are riddled with injuries.

A low probability event is going to improve its probability between now and the end of the season imo.
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