[News] 2023/2024 Norris Top 3: Hughes, Josi, Makar

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Oh the article was definitely written with a purpose, but acting like that stats are lying because of where the article published is silly talk.

And acting like the article covers everything, and the stats weren't chosen through a biased lens, is also silly talk.

Makar is playing like the best defenseman since Bobby Orr. He needs to keep doing it for several years, in order to be a legitimate comparison, but so far, that's where he's tracking.

Hughes had a fantastic year, on a team that had an off-the-charts PDO heater.

[dino7c]

Makar is the best hockey player on earth

although him getting snubbed would allow me to use "dude, where's Makar"

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And acting like the article covers everything, and the stats weren't chosen through a biased lens, is also silly talk.

Which ones are missing?

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Makar is playing like the best defenseman since Bobby Orr. He needs to keep doing it for several years, in order to be a legitimate comparison, but so far, that's where he's tracking.

That's the point of the article, he was not playing like it this year. It's not just this article that feels this way. A lot of analytical models were down on Makar this year.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hughes had a fantastic year, on a team that had an off-the-charts PDO heater.

Ah. that's why things like his expected goals for and expected goals against are so good. The PDO bender.


Edit- As an example of three guys with no bias whatsoever


https://twitter.com/rupper17/status/...p69dNA1d51vxFw

[Enoch Root]

Discussing bias with someone who's biased, always fun. And productive.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Edit- As an example of three guys with no bias whatsoever

Just fixing the tweet embed for ya

https://twitter.com/user/status/7fabqgtgp69dNA1d51vxFw


Edit: nope. looks like the embedder is borked (perhaps). i blame elon!

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Discussing bias with someone who's biased, always fun. And productive.

Lol, what a ####ty cop out.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Just fixing the tweet embed for ya

https://twitter.com/user/status/7fabqgtgp69dNA1d51vxFw


Edit: nope. looks like the embedder is borked (perhaps). i blame elon!

I fiddled with it so much to get it to work! I am glad I wasn't as dumb as I thought... slightly less dumb.

[GioforPM]

Some of that analysis is a bit flawed.

For example, PK stats per 60 minutes. On the surface Hughes has better numbers per 60 minutes. However, if you look at their usage it's pretty clear that Makar is on the first PK unit, which means he faces the first PP unit, and spends more time out there. Hughes doesn't.

[FlamesAddiction]

It’s also 2 minutes less that Makar was a on the ice on the PP or 5 on 5 trying to score. It adds up after a full season.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Lol, what a ####ty cop out.





I fiddled with it so much to get it to work! I am glad I wasn't as dumb as I thought... slightly less dumb.

Here is what I think people are missing though...I'd guarantee voters aren't using Evolving-Hockey or any advanced stats.

They are doing the name + eye test + stats combination that they use for any individual trophy in the NHL.

And that's why it's a close race for Hughes, Makar, and Josi.

Hughes: Most points, plays good enough defense, doesn't PK much
Makar: Biggest name, highest P/GP, plays good enough defense, plays PK
Josi: 3rd most points, most boring team, less exciting, doesn't play PK

That is why Makar is probably in the top 2...instead of 8th or whatever the advanced stats say. Because Frank S and the rest of the PWHL aren't looking at those numbers. Based on the numbers and what the voters are going to use to determine their votes it's going to be a lot closer than that article states.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Here is what I think people are missing though...I'd guarantee voters aren't using Evolving-Hockey or any advanced stats.

They are doing the name + eye test + stats combination that they use for any individual trophy in the NHL.

And that's why it's a close race for Hughes, Makar, and Josi.

Hughes: Most points, plays good enough defense, doesn't PK much
Makar: Biggest name, highest P/GP, plays good enough defense, plays PK
Josi: 3rd most points, most boring team, less exciting, doesn't play PK

That is why Makar is probably in the top 2...instead of 8th or whatever the advanced stats say. Because Frank S and the rest of the PWHL aren't looking at those numbers.

Oh, I understand why Makar is there. It's nothing new for Norris voting. But as far as actual play goes, he's good, but this year he wasn't super human. In fact he was barely top ten. He was a chute behind Nathan MacKinnon who was super-human, slowing him down.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Some of that analysis is a bit flawed.

For example, PK stats per 60 minutes. On the surface Hughes has better numbers per 60 minutes. However, if you look at their usage it's pretty clear that Makar is on the first PK unit, which means he faces the first PP unit, and spends more time out there. Hughes doesn't.

The PK take is the one there that's not quite in line with the rest of the article. It's everything else that makes this an avalanche (hehe) of stats in favour of Hughes over Makar.


I think the take of "Well, Hughes was remarkbly better in almost all facets of the game at 5on5, but because he doesn't kill penalties we should give it to Makar... even though he wasn't particularly good at killing penalties."

[Paulie Walnuts]

Erik Karlsson played like Airwreck Karlsson defensivley and won a Norris because he had 101 points and -26 makes you the best defenceman.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Erik Karlsson played like Airwreck Karlsson defensivley and won a Norris because he had 101 points and -26 makes you the best defenceman.

While I don't disagree with the take, he was also the only thing in San Jose doing anything for them.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

While I don't disagree with the take, he was also the only thing in San Jose doing anything for them.

Yup most valuable defenceman to his team, leading them to 22 wins.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yup most valuable defenceman to his team, leading them to 22 wins.

Again, I don't disagree. I thought Karlsson winning was silly last year. I understand why he won doing what he did.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Again, I don't disagree. I thought Karlsson winning was silly last year. I understand why he won doing what he did.

Ok cool.

Please crown Cale Makar the GOAT at once.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Ok cool.

Please crown Cale Makar the GOAT at once.

I'm not trying to make a case that Cale Makar isn't the best defenseman in the NHL over all. I am making the case he wasn't the best defenseman in the NHL this year.


If you ask me who I think is most likely to win the Norris next year, I'd start with Makar as my default.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Here is what I think people are missing though...I'd guarantee voters aren't using Evolving-Hockey or any advanced stats.

They are doing the name + eye test + stats combination that they use for any individual trophy in the NHL.

And that's why it's a close race for Hughes, Makar, and Josi.

Hughes: Most points, plays good enough defense, doesn't PK much
Makar: Biggest name, highest P/GP, plays good enough defense, plays PK
Josi: 3rd most points, most boring team, less exciting, doesn't play PK

That is why Makar is probably in the top 2...instead of 8th or whatever the advanced stats say. Because Frank S and the rest of the PWHL aren't looking at those numbers. Based on the numbers and what the voters are going to use to determine their votes it's going to be a lot closer than that article states.

If the advanced stats being used say Makar is 8th, probably need some more stats

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If the advanced stats being used say Makar is 8th, probably need some more stats

It's not one set of stats. He just wasn't himself this year. Which is how good Makar is, because even being clearly off has him in the top ten in the NHL.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It's not one set of stats. He just wasn't himself this year. Which is how good Makar is, because even being clearly off has him in the top ten in the NHL.

Didn't say it was one set, said if the stats being used suggest he was 8th, then get more (or better) stats

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Makar wasn't very good this year by his standards. Even his counting stats should be better with his offensive abilities and the year Mack had. He should finish 3rd.