2021 Formula 1 Season

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Why can't it? Because he only overtook him by inches?

You either apply the rule of law or you don't. He either overtook him and broke the rule or he didn't.

What next? He was only 1km over the limit in the pit lane?

Except that's not how it ever works. Not now anyway.
It's a bizarre sport where you make up the rules as you go.
It's more like sports entertainment, WWE style.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Why can't it? Because he only overtook him by inches?

You either apply the rule of law or you don't. He either overtook him and broke the rule or he didn't.

What next? He was only 1km over the limit in the pit lane?

I’m willing to bet there are literally dozens of examples of cars being ahead by 2 inches on a formation lap or behind SC without penalty.

It’s a complete non issue.

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Except that's not how it ever works. Not now anyway.
It's a bizarre sport where you make up the rules as you go.
It's more like sports entertainment, WWE style.

Not really. Not unless you think every sport is WWE. NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA have no consistency in their calls from play to play, game to game, season to season.

They are judgement calls, it happens.

Releasing the other 10 lapped cars makes no difference, it shouldn’t matter at all.

I take that back. You know who should be protesting? The 5 drivers who unlapped themselves and the other three who weren’t allowed to.

The decision didn’t allow drivers to fight for position on the last lap the way max was allowed. That could have major consequences to the drivers and constructors positions in the championship.



This whole SC thing was karma for Toto trying to influence safety decisions and campaigning for no SC. That’s scummy.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I’m willing to bet there are literally dozens of examples of cars being ahead by 2 inches on a formation lap or behind SC without penalty.

And I totally wouldn't disagree with you. But that's a weak legal defence.

But to prevent scenarios like we have now they maybe should have enforced them more. As Eldrick said they make up their interpretations of the rules.

I'm not saying what Mercedes is doing is right but they are technically asking the FIA to enforce their own rules. Regardless that they have turned a blind eye to it and in the past.

Problem is proving that he actually passed him from the angles.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bagor

And I totally wouldn't disagree with you. But that's a weak legal defence.

But to prevent scenarios like we have now they maybe should have enforced them more. As Eldrick said they make up their interpretations of the rules.

I'm not saying what Mercedes is doing is right but they are technically asking the FIA to enforce their own rules. Regardless that they have turned a blind eye to it and in the past.

Problem is proving that he actually passed him from the angles.

What do you mean a weak legal defence? It’s the rules. No one has ever interpreted that rule to mean you can’t be ahead for even a single second. That’s not what that rule means and that’s not what it has ever meant.

So it’s a pretty weak legal defence to want to change the rule just for this one instance. Which funny enough, is why the lapped cars issue is problematic.

[Bagor]

What rule are they asking to be changed ?

The rule is clear. You can't overtake behind the safety car.

How do you know what the interpretation of the rule is?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What rule are they asking to be changed ?

The rule is clear. You can't overtake behind the safety car.

How do you know what the interpretation of the rule is?

Because that’s how the rule has always been interpreted. No one else is even talking about this. It’s a non issue and a Hail Mary from Merc. It’s not a penalty. End of story. It’s a waste of time even talking about it.



I’m surprised to see everyone on the panel thought Max’s pass on lap 1 was legitimate. Looked to me he just didn’t brake and was gonna pull another Monza/Brazil.

Mistake by Hamilton to not defend better into that corner.

They should have red flagged the race if they wanted the race to continue at the end.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Because that’s how the rule has always been interpreted. No one else is even talking about this. It’s a non issue and a Hail Mary from Merc. It’s not a penalty. End of story. It’s a waste of time even talking about it.

You have zero idea how the rule is being "interpreted" except that there have been no previous instances of a driver having been cleared of doing it.

The rule is clear. Despite your claim otherwise there is no definite "interpretation". Far from end of story.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Not really. Not unless you think every sport is WWE. NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA have no consistency in their calls from play to play, game to game, season to season.

They are judgement calls, it happens.

Releasing the other 10 lapped cars makes no difference, it shouldn’t matter at all.

Not a judgement call.
And yes, NFL and NHL have made #### up or didn't apply rules at important times (tuck rule/Brett hull skate in crease). Not judgement calls and bad calls.

I would have been very happy with red flag. Restart with 4 laps left. As it was, decision against convention/rules simply handed it to max. There was no other possible outcome

[speede5]

What a clusterf##k. When Max got tires under the VSC I was hopeful he would catch up and make it a race with ~3 to go. Shame these things end up in the hands of the refs. I guess they should have pitted Lewis immediately, he would have been the one with softs and one lap to go.

Good for RB, nice to see the mercs face some competition. Still can't stand Max but I think we better get used to it, he's got multiple championships in him. It was only a matter of time.

[Bagor]

Now we have a precedent.

Protest about overtaking behind the safety car has been dismissed.

RB's defence that it was not overtaken and that both cars were on and off the throttle accepted.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Now we have a precedent.

Protest about overtaking behind the safety car has been dismissed.

RB's defence that it was not overtaken and that both cars were on and off the throttle accepted.

Well, actually RB’s defence was, and I quote, “there were ‘a million precedents’” of this happening with no penalty.


Weird, that’s exactly what I said.

[Bagor]

And of these precedents how many made it to the stewards office.?

As I said now we have a precedent in the form of a ruling for future cases.

Now for the main one.

[BagoPucks]

Wow. What an end.

[powderjunkie]

The salt in here is delicious.

Brundle skewing his opinion to counter his bias? Laughable...he's a great commentator and calls it as he sees it. 3 world champions seemed to generally agree with him that it was about a 51-49 incident where Max was at the very limit of fair racing, but ultimately HAM gained an unfair advantage by leaving the track.

A single framegrab can be a little misleading, but if the inside driver below can keep 2 tires on the track then he's earned the corner:



I didn't see anything more egregious about the lap 1 lunge today than HAM's move at Silverstone. Hard racing, but Max had done more to earn the corner and there wasn't really any risk of HAM ending up in the hospital.

It's motor racing - SCs are inherently 'unfair' - but it's been that way for 25+ years - it all comes out in the wash.

FWIW I have never been a fan of Hamilton, but have come to respect him a lot more these last few years. He was a class act today.

I'm also no Max fan, but find him and RBR to be the lesser of two evils, especially lately. I've also gained respect for him and like his no BS attitude. He has definitely crossed the line a few times, but no differently than many of the other scandals and controversies over the years.




I've posted many times before about the lapped cars overtaking rule being silly - and let us not forget that Lewis lucked into at least 6+ points with it in Imola (ie. a point gap that would have made today's mess irrelevant). It's always been a waste of racing laps...I'd prefer they simply drop to the back, which would let them continue their fights for positions.

Lastly, Max's 2 inch "overtake" is no more egregious than HAM's 30 car length gap under SC last week. If we want to objectively re-litigate every minor/major foul and 'motor racing luck' incident (e.g. Baku) throughout the season, I suspect the gap would be a fair bit more than 8 pts in Max's favour.

[powderjunkie]

Silverstone 1994 Schumacher was given a 5 second penalty for overtaking twice on the formation lap...pretty obvious gamesmanship.

We've seen dozens of examples like today's go unpunished (common sense prevailing).

[Nsd1]

Poor Lewis, FIA finally turned on him. #UnBlessed

[vennegoor of hesselink]

[FurnaceFace]

That was very CFL-y! It would have been nice to have the champion decided by racing not drama and gamesmanship all season. I want a one race winner take all shootout where Max and Lewis have to drive Williams or Haas cars.

[Zoller]

Alonso when being told Verstappen is p2 but 4 cars behind "He should be 2 cars in front of me" - in reference to the safety car


https://youtu.be/BGvtbDl3rcI

[speede5]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The salt in here is delicious.

Brundle skewing his opinion to counter his bias? Laughable...he's a great commentator and calls it as he sees it. 3 world champions seemed to generally agree with him that it was about a 51-49 incident where Max was at the very limit of fair racing, but ultimately HAM gained an unfair advantage by leaving the track.

A single framegrab can be a little misleading, but if the inside driver below can keep 2 tires on the track then he's earned the corner:



I didn't see anything more egregious about the lap 1 lunge today than HAM's move at Silverstone. Hard racing, but Max had done more to earn the corner and there wasn't really any risk of HAM ending up in the hospital.

I can’t agree at all that this is motor racing or even remotely an acceptable way to drive through a corner and make a pass. He’s completely blown the apex and is forcing his opponent off the track. Nothing even remotely close to silver stone where Lewis was turning through the corner and drifted a couple feet. Max is still pointing straight ffs. Anyone can go balls out into a corner and play chicken that’s not talent it’s garbage.

It didn’t much matter as he wasn’t able to outpace the merc the whole race and the end was all about who decided to pit. It could have just as easily been ham with new tires and Max on old.

If Max was on the outside of that same pass he’d be crying the other way. It’s too bad these cars are so fragile I’d love to see someone just stay in there and say f u to those bonsai passes.