Golf!!!2!

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Speaking of "handicap max score", I'm curious how many people use ESC and stop playing a hole? What are people's thoughts? I've always been of the opinion that ESC is pretty much BS - if you got a 9 or 10 on the hole, then that's what you got. You should only adjust to the max score (which is now a net double bogey) if you are entering the score for handicap purposes.

I also think that limiting players to a net double bogey artificially keep handicaps down as most players I know in my skill bracket (14 handicap right now) often struggle with big numbers on a few holes, but play pretty well otherwise. Take away a few 8s or a 9 and your score looks a lot better than it actually was (say an 89 vs 91)

I don't know about artificially keeping it down. The whole point of it is to scratch off those couple blow up holes that can turn into a 10 or 12 once you've kind of given up. Yeah, an 89 with a few maxes taken isn't really an 89, but it creates an even playing field for handicap comparisons. It also gives you a framework to keep a score with some established practical guidelines. I don't want to play with or behind a couple guys who are are going to finish out their 10s or 12s on a hole, especially if they are doing that somewhat regularly!

[Dion]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Speaking of "handicap max score", I'm curious how many people use ESC and stop playing a hole? What are people's thoughts? I've always been of the opinion that ESC is pretty much BS - if you got a 9 or 10 on the hole, then that's what you got. You should only adjust to the max score (which is now a net double bogey) if you are entering the score for handicap purposes.

I also think that limiting players to a net double bogey artificially keep handicaps down as most players I know in my skill bracket (14 handicap right now) often struggle with big numbers on a few holes, but play pretty well otherwise. Take away a few 8s or a 9 and your score looks a lot better than it actually was (say an 89 vs 91)

I use the Golf Canada website for recording my scores.

https://scg.golfcanada.ca/login

I count all strokes regardless of ESC.

[spetch]

Originally Posted by Dion

I use the Golf Canada website for recording my scores.

https://scg.golfcanada.ca/login

I count all strokes regardless of ESC.

If you enter hole by hole on the app it will adjust your score automatically to net double bogey. Also, if you enter before midnight on the day you play it will also adjust the slope/rating of the course you played based on conditions (crappy weather day and the course played harder, easier etc.). The course conditions doesn't happen to much (not that I've seen anyways) but it is supposed to.

The net double bogey helps keep more of a level playing field when it comes to handicapping. Not having it would produce too many wild swings in index, especially for the average/mid index guys and produce more of an unfair playing field. If you are constantly getting 8-10's then even with the net double bogey your index will eventually show that, and your index will be the "demonstrated ability" to keep shooting 8-10's in a round.

[malcolmk14]

Well I’ve played twice this year and I’ve decided to hang up the clubs. As someone who used to be a 6 handicap I just haven’t had the time the last two or three years to play much anymore. My swing is a disaster and I find myself just getting frustrated with the game and with how I’m playing lately. Went from shooting 50% of my rounds in the 70’s to barely breaking 100. No point in paying $100 a round and playing like that so I made the decision to just not play until I can dedicate more time to actually play good.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Well I’ve played twice this year and I’ve decided to hang up the clubs. As someone who used to be a 6 handicap I just haven’t had the time the last two or three years to play much anymore. My swing is a disaster and I find myself just getting frustrated with the game and with how I’m playing lately. Went from shooting 50% of my rounds in the 70’s to barely breaking 100. No point in paying $100 a round and playing like that so I made the decision to just not play until I can dedicate more time to actually play good.

That’s actually exactly where I’m exiting from. Before kids was playing good golf 35+ rounds a year and guys trips. For last 10 years maybe played 3 rounds per year of actual 18 hole not best ball. Kids are finally old enough I can go early morning and get home when they’re just getting up. Luckily I have sleep in kids

Was a tough 10 years though being unhappy with my game

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by spetch

If you enter hole by hole on the app it will adjust your score automatically to net double bogey. Also, if you enter before midnight on the day you play it will also adjust the slope/rating of the course you played based on conditions (crappy weather day and the course played harder, easier etc.). The course conditions doesn't happen to much (not that I've seen anyways) but it is supposed to.

The net double bogey helps keep more of a level playing field when it comes to handicapping. Not having it would produce too many wild swings in index, especially for the average/mid index guys and produce more of an unfair playing field. If you are constantly getting 8-10's then even with the net double bogey your index will eventually show that, and your index will be the "demonstrated ability" to keep shooting 8-10's in a round.

If you don't enter hole by hole or adjust for ESC, then you are sandbagging your handicap, which will piss some people off if you're playing for money.

[MacDaddy77]

I use the grint as an app to track handicap. Do you give people the handicap index or the differential average?

Index for me is 9.6
Differtial avv is 19.1

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

If you don't enter hole by hole or adjust for ESC, then you are sandbagging your handicap, which will piss some people off if you're playing for money.

Amen

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I use the grint as an app to track handicap. Do you give people the handicap index or the differential average?

Index for me is 9.6
Differtial avv is 19.1

If you're using it for games or tournaments/events, the correct thing is to use the course handicap. That's Index*slope rating/113 + course rating-par.

A lot of friendly games will use a rounded index which usually isn't fair to higher handicappers on a tough course.

Differential average is never mentioned that I've heard.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

That’s actually exactly where I’m exiting from. Before kids was playing good golf 35+ rounds a year and guys trips. For last 10 years maybe played 3 rounds per year of actual 18 hole not best ball. Kids are finally old enough I can go early morning and get home when they’re just getting up. Luckily I have sleep in kids

Was a tough 10 years though being unhappy with my game

That’s where I was. Kids and a spine surgery meant that I barely played for a few years and then didn’t play at all for a few years. My game is completely different now. I can’t hit anywhere near as long (or straight!), and the short game is a struggle still.

I switched to an arm-lock putter this year though and I feel like it’s made a huge difference. I track a bunch of stats, and I’m averaging 2 putts per hole. I’d love to get that down still, but I’m satisfied with that.

It’s a long process though, and one that I’m happy to continue to work on! I’m pretty much addicted at this point I think.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Slava

That’s where I was. Kids and a spine surgery meant that I barely played for a few years and then didn’t play at all for a few years. My game is completely different now. I can’t hit anywhere near as long (or straight!), and the short game is a struggle still.

I switched to an arm-lock putter this year though and I feel like it’s made a huge difference. I track a bunch of stats, and I’m averaging 2 putts per hole. I’d love to get that down still, but I’m satisfied with that.

It’s a long process though, and one that I’m happy to continue to work on! I’m pretty much addicted at this point I think.

Familiar story too. Hacked around with friends through my mid-late 20s. Then got really into it late 20s playing 2-3 times a week, then had kids and dropped to once a week if I was lucky, then they got into soccer and baseball, and golf clubs got mostly put away. I had a microdiscectomy somewhere in there.

Now the kids are 13 and 15 and losing interest in the grind of their year round travel sports teams and the younger one has decided he's completely into golf. One of our local private clubs had a deal for after 1pm family golf memberships for 200/month with no initiation, and we took that and have been playing with them 3-4 days a week for a few months now and there's a men's 9 hole league I've started playin. I've got my scoring close to where I was a decade ago, but man, my distance down 20-30%.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

If you don't enter hole by hole or adjust for ESC, then you are sandbagging your handicap, which will piss some people off if you're playing for money.

The mens league I play in does that when it comes to handicaps.

My pro uses golf genius for league play and for posting the results of weekly games and the points standings for players in the league.

https://www.golfgenius.com/pages/7254033328766995344

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

If you don't enter hole by hole or adjust for ESC, then you are sandbagging your handicap, which will piss some people off if you're playing for money.

Are you really though? The new system only takes the best 8 rounds out of your last 20, so it's already taking your best scores and throwing away your bad round. Add in the fact that guys playing for money probably play a good enough game that there probably are very few actual ESC adjustments in those top 8 rounds (if any).

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

If you don't enter hole by hole or adjust for ESC, then you are sandbagging your handicap, which will piss some people off if you're playing for money.

I disagree. I find ESC is a crutch for a lot of players. I play with several mid to high handicap players who rely on it to keep their scores down and not finish holes, because... ESC. That's not right. Play the ball to completion, no matter how painful it is. As someone who has carded a 13 (on a par five), while shooting 75 on a par 70 course, I believe you honor the game and take your lumps. That 13 is a badge of honor and the card still hangs in the shop of the course it was shot on. I'm not a massive stickler for the rules, allowing preferred lies and giving reasonable gimme's to speed up the round, but I demand that players finish out the hole and take their lumps. It's a learning experience and builds character. After all, golf is a game about character, and finishing every hole and taking the odd kick in the nuts is part of the game.

Sandbaggers are going to sandbag regardless of what scoring method you use. I know guys who have the "oopsies" every round, just to keep that handicap up there. I know guys that add two to four strokes when entering their scores, just to keep the handicap up there. Guys will sandbag because they're dicks, not because of a scoring system. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are guys who reverse sandbag and try to maintain an ego handicap. They only enter their good scores which keeps their handicap artificially low. Not that big a deal, until you draw one of them and have to play a team game! Golf is a game of honor and keeping score is a honor thing. If you're really that concerned about sandbaggers, play match play and give handicap advantage through tee differential (one tee box on holes where the player strokes) rather than stroke advantage. You'd be surprised how quickly those sandbaggers get washed out in this format.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Are you really though? The new system only takes the best 8 rounds out of your last 20, so it's already taking your best scores and throwing away your bad round. Add in the fact that guys playing for money probably play a good enough game that there probably are very few actual ESC adjustments in those top 8 rounds (if any).

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk

Yeah, it only counts the best 8 of your last 20, and I agree that sounds like a good gauge. But in reality, regardless of your index, you probably only shoot your target score once every 5-6 rounds. If your shoot that target score consistently than it will lower the target until that happens.

And as far as playing for money, if you use the handicap it evens things out and we should all be at par if we play to the handicap. That’s what makes golf enjoyable to play with others. If someone has a 20 handicap and the other guy is a 10 you can still have a close and competitive match. Obviously it’s not the case straight up though.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I disagree. I find ESC is a crutch for a lot of players. I play with several mid to high handicap players who rely on it to keep their scores down and not finish holes, because... ESC. That's not right. Play the ball to completion, no matter how painful it is. As someone who has carded a 13 (on a par five), while shooting 75 on a par 70 course, I believe you honor the game and take your lumps. That 13 is a badge of honor and the card still hangs in the shop of the course it was shot on. I'm not a massive stickler for the rules, allowing preferred lies and giving reasonable gimme's to speed up the round, but I demand that players finish out the hole and take their lumps. It's a learning experience and builds character. After all, golf is a game about character, and finishing every hole and taking the odd kick in the nuts is part of the game.

Sandbaggers are going to sandbag regardless of what scoring method you use. I know guys who have the "oopsies" every round, just to keep that handicap up there. I know guys that add two to four strokes when entering their scores, just to keep the handicap up there. Guys will sandbag because they're dicks, not because of a scoring system. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are guys who reverse sandbag and try to maintain an ego handicap. They only enter their good scores which keeps their handicap artificially low. Not that big a deal, until you draw one of them and have to play a team game! Golf is a game of honor and keeping score is a honor thing. If you're really that concerned about sandbaggers, play match play and give handicap advantage through tee differential (one tee box on holes where the player strokes) rather than stroke advantage. You'd be surprised how quickly those sandbaggers get washed out in this format.

The tee box isn’t a good indication of someone’s handicap though. There are plenty of high handicappers who hit well from the tee and have zero short game. It’s pointless to say “you play from the closer tees and that evens things up here”. Oftentimes, it hinders them further by playing too far forward.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Slava

The tee box isn’t a good indication of someone’s handicap though. There are plenty of high handicappers who hit well from the tee and have zero short game. It’s pointless to say “you play from the closer tees and that evens things up here”. Oftentimes, it hinders them further by playing too far forward.

I don't disagree, to a point. But the challenge is providing a fair "play" advantage rather than gifting a stroke. This obviously favors the players who 1) have a brain in their head and understand course management, and 2) can strike all their clubs well. We don't use this method very often, but we pull it out every now and then to give the low handicappers a break from the sandbaggers. It's really quite effective.

To the point of tee box selection, tee box selection is something that is used to make tournaments more equitable, and it has been proven to be quite effective. The tee box is not a reflection of the player's capability, but is there to act as balancing effect in lieu of handicap. This has long been an accepted method in tournaments by the USGA and has a track record of success. Flighting is also a more fair method, but in a more open format, tee box advantage is fair form of flatting the handicap advantage. Personally I prefer flighting, but the larger purses in team competition keep more people happy. There is the challenge, keeping everyone happy, which is impossible.

[Northendzone]

Golfed at serenity this morning. Teed off at 8.15 and putted out on 18 at arpind10.50 and I likely waited a couple of times for a total of 15m.

I golfed by myself, there was a twosome ahead of me; however, they would never wait long enough for me to join or wave me thru.

Wish every round was that quick.

[psyang]

One of my favorite fast rounds was playing Eagle Ranch in Invermere a few years ago. It is the only time I played it.

ER is usually pretty pricey compared to other courses in the area, and they don't often have deals, so I often don't even check the course when I'm in the area. But I was there late in the season (end of September) and saw they had a great deal - something like $70 including cart and range balls after 2pm. I grabbed a time, and when I arrived the place looked deserted. Hit a few balls, then started.

I think I met a foursome at the third hole, who let me play through. Over the next 8 holes, I think 4 more groups let me play through. After that, I didn't see a single player the rest of the round.

I ended up shooting my best (then) ever round of 82 in 2:30. This included a miracle on 18.

18 is a par 5 over a gully, but the tee shot is blind as the the hole doglegs left and severely downhill. I just saw it was a par 5, and hit driver. cutting the dogleg a little. At the bottom of the hill, and just before the gully, is the red tee box, and there was my ball, sitting pretty on the tee box. Literally 2 meters more it would have been in the gully. I hit 3 wood to just short of the green, then up and down for birdie.

On exceptional rounds I try to buy something at the pro shop as a memento. I went for a cap. My head is short, and I find a lot of caps are too deep cutting into my ears. But I found a decent Eagle Ranch cap that was short and bought it.

When I got back to where I was staying, I saw that the cap had little rhinestones on it and a small pink trim I somehow missed in my euphoria. My daughter wears it now, and it makes me smile every time I see it.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by psyang

One of my favorite fast rounds was playing Eagle Ranch in Invermere a few years ago. It is the only time I played it.

ER is usually pretty pricey compared to other courses in the area, and they don't often have deals, so I often don't even check the course when I'm in the area. But I was there late in the season (end of September) and saw they had a great deal - something like $70 including cart and range balls after 2pm. I grabbed a time, and when I arrived the place looked deserted. Hit a few balls, then started.

I think I met a foursome at the third hole, who let me play through. Over the next 8 holes, I think 4 more groups let me play through. After that, I didn't see a single player the rest of the round.

I ended up shooting my best (then) ever round of 82 in 2:30. This included a miracle on 18.

18 is a par 5 over a gully, but the tee shot is blind as the the hole doglegs left and severely downhill. I just saw it was a par 5, and hit driver. cutting the dogleg a little. At the bottom of the hill, and just before the gully, is the red tee box, and there was my ball, sitting pretty on the tee box. Literally 2 meters more it would have been in the gully. I hit 3 wood to just short of the green, then up and down for birdie.

On exceptional rounds I try to buy something at the pro shop as a memento. I went for a cap. My head is short, and I find a lot of caps are too deep cutting into my ears. But I found a decent Eagle Ranch cap that was short and bought it.

When I got back to where I was staying, I saw that the cap had little rhinestones on it and a small pink trim I somehow missed in my euphoria. My daughter wears it now, and it makes me smile every time I see it.

I love this story for so many reasons. The obvious big reveal at the end...but also the subtle cliche of shooting a great round while by yourself.

Two years ago I had a short eagle putt, it would be my first in years. I was playing by myself and was super nervous that no one would ever believe me...luckily I missed it short by a mile, whew.

@Lanny -> I've never heard of golfing the shot holes off shorter tees, haha, that would actually be pretty clever.

Arccos tracks a lot of stats and relates it to handicap. Tee shots are the biggest place that we hackers differ from better players. The high handicapper that is great off the tee and has a terrible short game is a myth. I'm sure we all know a guy, but are you really tracking his stats? Or just noticing when he catches one clean instead of being in the trees 6x a round.

I understand Calgary is at elevation, so you get an extra 7% on your shots compared to sea level, so a lot of players can reach 300yrd drives. I don't think a lot of golfers back home realize what an advantage that is until they go golf in Florida / Hawaii / Phoenix / Palm Springs and struggle to hit their handicap. The difference on a 300yrd drive in Calgary vs the 280yrd drive in Phoenix is two clubs. Miss the center of the face a touch which all of us do and that 280yrds is now closer to 240-250yrds...that 150yrd 7iron or 8iron is now a 6iron+.

Anyway, not having a go at anyone, just saying as I've gotten older I've noticed how much more enjoyable my rounds are playing off shorter tee boxes...except when we play with my one friend that hates going off the blue tees, on those days you gotta stretch it out to the tips.