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Old 01-16-2018, 09:02 PM   #5801
oldschoolcalgary
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No doubt in my mind he would be lights out on this team.. I could see him fitting in well with Bennett/Jankowski ~ that line would be a possession monster for the opposition... absolute nightmare to contain and I could see him fitting great with Tkachuk/Backlund as well.

As for said cost... again like above I think we might have to see a guy like Frolik going the other way and that's not to say that I'm not a Frolik fan.. I think someone said in another thread that Hudler is the best free agent signing they'd seen in their time as a Flames fan; I see Frolik definitely making that short list he's been awesome so far for us but I could see this as a potential upgrade and a chance to spread the scoring. Cost is going to be a roster player and considerable futures for a guy like Simmonds though.

Frolik
Fox
Gillies
Mid pick

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Bennett - Jankowski - Simmonds
Tkachuk - Backlund - Hathaway
Mangiapane - Stajan - Brouwer

I don't know if that's enough or too much but Simmonds would be a sick fit here no doubt; he is approaching 30 and will be next year during his contract season but he would fit in nicely.
Simmons can be a beast... that's why i doubt Philly would trade him... i could be wrong but i am sure the price wouldn't be that different from the Kane ask, which, according Dreger has bumped up a little:

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But there are teams out there who now say that Jason Botterill, the General Manager of the Sabres would like as many as four pieces and included is also an NHL roster player. So you don't get what you ask for unless you ask for it first.
https://www.tsn.ca/insider-trading-c...ssets-1.970017

you'd have to think all three of those guys won't be cheap, but i don't think there are that many buyers out there willing to part with that much...

it depends on how long BT thinks the window is, because the acquisition price substantial

Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 01-16-2018 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:08 PM   #5802
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I think Hoffman is a much better fit than Kane, because he's not a giant D-bag and also has 2 more years of term left on his deal.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:31 PM   #5803
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I mean the quintessential play it safe move was to not trade Brett Hull for Rob Ramage. I mean, Hull, had years ahead of him as a star in the league. But Cliff Fletcher thought the Flames' window was 1989. Oddly enough, the Flames had enough scoring but needed more D. The reverse if this year. And yes yes, the Flames were clearly at a different tangent on the arc. But in this era...

Think about Chicago, Toews and Kane are emerging, have huge contracts to sign coming up, so what do they do? Sign Hossa for long term to push them over the edge. Stan Bowman wasn't satisfied with maybe being a contender, he was going to make sure that the team was packed to the gills with firepower.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:43 PM   #5804
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Signing Hossa is a completely different situation than trading assets that weaken your defensive core. They added, but they didn't sacrifice the strong D core to do it. And as for Hull, trading him didn't hurt their offense (they had plenty).

No one is against improving the team, but like you said yourself, the Flames are at a very different tangent than the 89 team was.

Find a way to add to the scoring without forsaking the D core, and then we have something. But as it stands right now, the D is coming together.

In the last 18 games, the Flames have not given up more than 3 goals in any game. They are 11-4-3, which is the 5th best record. They are 12th in goals for, and most importantly, 2nd in goals against. They are +17, which is 4th best.

You talk about being bold, and I am all for it. But there is nothing to be gained by undermining the strengths of the team.

Adding is great. But restructuring a team that is just coming together, and is just starting to show the results of having a strong collection of defenders, isn't bold, it's foolish.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:50 PM   #5805
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I mean the quintessential play it safe move was to not trade Brett Hull for Rob Ramage. I mean, Hull, had years ahead of him as a star in the league. But Cliff Fletcher thought the Flames' window was 1989. Oddly enough, the Flames had enough scoring but needed more D. The reverse if this year. And yes yes, the Flames were clearly at a different tangent on the arc. But in this era...

Think about Chicago, Toews and Kane are emerging, have huge contracts to sign coming up, so what do they do? Sign Hossa for long term to push them over the edge. Stan Bowman wasn't satisfied with maybe being a contender, he was going to make sure that the team was packed to the gills with firepower.

The difficult part to grasp what you're saying in the last two pages is two weeks ago you were in your element lecturing after a few losses something to the effect that "teams don't win cups with guys like Monahan as their #1 Centre and Gio as their #1 D-man"

Two weeks later you're advocating the window is now to move all in?

It's hard to keep up with your wildly opposing takes.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:05 PM   #5806
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The difficult part to grasp what you're saying in the last two pages is two weeks ago you were in your element lecturing after a few losses something to the effect that "teams don't win cups with guys like Monahan as their #1 Centre and Gio as their #1 D-man"

Two weeks later you're advocating the window is now to move all in?

It's hard to keep up with your wildly opposing takes.
Not to defend Tinordi, but the wildly opposing takes also comes from the Flames being a Jekyl and Hyde team. They are either absolutely amazingly top tier, the equal of any team in the league. Or lifeless, skillless unmotivated bums who are unworthy of the NHL.

The last couple years itís been pretty consistently inconsistent and as a fan itís frustrating as hell. Seemingly depending on time of year, this team is either fine as it is and really doesnít need any changes... or is a lottery team that needs blowing up!
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:09 PM   #5807
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It's not hard to understand, how many chances every decade do you get where you think you can really go deep? Regardless of the flaws on the roster, you have to dance with the girl you brought. This is the roster we have and this roster is the closest the team has been to a cup in a decade. So you go for it.

Giordano is on his last legs as an elite D (and I never said anything to the effect that he wasnt fit to lead this team deep), Monahan is right at the apex of his prime as a goal scorer. This could be Gaudreau's career year (in this era 24 years old is typically the most productive year of elite players). The 3M line is dominant, will it continue to be next season and especially with questions about Backlunds future? Mike Smith is having his career year at 35 years old. Sure maybe Tkachuk and Bennett emerge next season to truly take the next step but we're talking bird in the hand here.

And needless to say, the future is already mortgaged on this season. We have no high picks this year, and no second in two years. So is trading Brodie the answer? No, not really, the answer is getting more scoring depth and critically getting a guy with a one time option for the PP. I just have a hard time seeing Ferland, Brouwer and Frolik being able to get it done on a deep run. That's more of a liability for the season AND in the coming seasons than having a D without Brodie or Harmonic or Stone. People are suggesting that addressing the lack of depth on RW is short sighted. Umm... Have you looked at the organizational depth at that position? There is literally nothing in the pipeline to address RW for at least the next three seasons. Meanwhile we have what look to be four young D with top four potential on the farm. Something's gotta give.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:15 PM   #5808
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You can’t exactly say the future is mortgaged, when the players we have up picks to get are all young...
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:29 PM   #5809
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I like the team as is. Honestly wouldn't change a thing. I am not seeing a whole lot of weakness with Ferland, Frolik, Hathaway, Versteeg, Brouwer and wildcard of a healthy jagr. Lots of versatility there.

No need to tinker, no need to take from a strength right now. Look at dealing stone in the off season to recoup a pick.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:34 PM   #5810
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Hate to give up more futures, but if management really believes this team has what it takes, then the window is 3 years before the D needs to be rebuilt/retooled.

That, combined with a stable of good, young D prospects (Valimaki, Andersson, Fox, Kylington, Kulak) and the fact that our core forwards are mostly very young still (Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Jankowski) means you might as well load up now if you can.

However, NO rentals. Get a guy like Hoffman, who's contract status lines up perfectly with the perceived window (2.5 more years).

The 2019 1st + Mangiapane would have to be a really strong starting point IMO.


Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik
Bennett - Jankowski - Hoffman


That is a very strong, and overall quite young, top 9 forward group to swing for the fences with while this window is supposedly open. Need to get Backlund, or at least a decent equivalent, signed though because that would leave a gaping hole.

Not without risk though. Just a month ago it looked very much like the Flames may have handed a lottery pick to the Isles, and one bad stretch could bring that back into play in no time. Two years of that would be unbearable.

But if they want to stand pat and see what this roster can do on it's own, I'm OK with that too for this year. Just don't pay the ridiculous price for a rental.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:37 PM   #5811
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I think people have a strange idea of what young is in this league nowadays. This is a young man's game now for offensive players. Monahan is not "young" as a goal scorer, statistically speaking, 23 is the peak year for goal scorers. Monahan as soon as next season potentially will be "old" or past his prime. Similar for Gaudreau but I think based on his style he'll have a longer peak. Farbeit for some fans to admit but the window is now. The Flames actually don't have the luxury of time their best assets all are facing the prospect of decline.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:45 PM   #5812
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It's not hard to understand, how many chances every decade do you get where you think you can really go deep? Regardless of the flaws on the roster, you have to dance with the girl you brought. This is the roster we have and this roster is the closest the team has been to a cup in a decade. So you go for it.
I see. So you don't think they're capable of going deep into the playoffs:

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Monahan is not a top center on a contending team. A 35 year old Giordano is not the #1 D on a contending team. Michael Ferland is not a top line RW on a playoff team. Hamilton and Brodie are not a #2/3 D on a contending team.

But think they should swing for the fences and try anyway.

Makes much more sense and is very consistent with your ongoing narrative when you put it that way. And bonus, it sets the table nicely for the smug told-you-so drive-bys if they don't go deep this season.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:56 PM   #5813
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Your concerns have been noted, are you going to join the respectful conversation we've been having and talk about who the flames should and shouldn't trade to go deep in the playoffs now?
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:02 AM   #5814
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I see. So you don't think they're capable of going deep into the playoffs:




But think they should swing for the fences and try anyway.

Makes much more sense and is very consistent with your ongoing narrative when you put it that way. And bonus, it sets the table nicely for the smug told-you-so drive-bys if they don't go deep this season.
So you woke up this morning and decided you were going to use words like lecturing, wildly, hyperbole, and drive-by in your CP conversations today?
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:04 AM   #5815
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Your concerns have been noted, are you going to join the respectful conversation we've been having and talk about who the flames should and shouldn't trade to go deep in the playoffs now?
Just wanted to clarify how you go from suggesting the top players at each position "aren't top players on contending teams" to it being "the closest the team has been to a cup in a decade."

Thought it was a valid inquiry in terms of your suggesting we spend assets after you've dubbed the team incapeable of contending.

I don't share that view at all and would be fine standing pat knowing we'll have the likes of Frolik and possibly Versteeg back.

If the right trade comes up to add scoring without it being an over-pay on a rental, I'd be all for that as well.

Where you see impending doom and inadequacy, I see a league full of parity where having a good roster and getting hot at the right time put a lot of teams - this one included - in the right spot to make a deep run.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:08 AM   #5816
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what is difficult about understanding a poster saying the team is not good enough and then following that up by saying the team should make a trade to get better so that they are good enough?
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:11 AM   #5817
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what is difficult about understanding a poster saying the team is not good enough and then following that up by saying the team should make a trade to get better so that they are good enough?
I thought I was clear: Suggesting a team won't "contend" with Monahan and Giordano as it's top Centre / D-man, and then saying this is "the closest the team has been to a cup in a decade"

Unless he's expecting to find a new #1 Centre and D-man at the trade deadline, I'm still at a loss to the cold/hot outlook at post season potential.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:15 AM   #5818
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what is difficult about understanding a poster saying the team is not good enough and then following that up by saying the team should make a trade to get better so that they are good enough?
One could even say that dredging up old posts that are orthogonal to the discussion at hand is the very definition of a "drive by" post.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:19 AM   #5819
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One could even say that dredging up old posts that are orthogonal to the discussion at hand is the very definition of a "drive by" post.
Right, because why should there by any consistency with your ongoing contention of this team's inadequacies?

That post was from less than a month ago, and I think it raises a good point.

You don't seem to think there's any hope the team contends with these players yet just said it's time to push all the chips in because Monahan and Gaudreau might be at their peak this season?

Sorry if it's tough to wrap my head around how bleak that outlook is.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:23 AM   #5820
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Yeah it is kind of funny that two posters who were arguing that 'this team just isn't talented enough' a couple weeks ago in the fire Gulutzan discussions, are suddenly leading the charge for the 'Treliving needs to go all in right now' view.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk, Brodie, Hamilton and Hamonic are not 'in' their primes, they are all 'entering' their primes.

This team is just at the beginning of a 5 - 10 year period of being an upper echelon team.

Of course there will be changes: Giordano will not be a top pairing defenseman forever; Backlund is in his prime right now; Frolik is on the back side of the hill; Smith is in his twilight.

But all teams go through that. There will be replacements for these guys as the team moves forward. But they have a young core that is going to be the foundation for good teams for many years to come. Busting that up to try and get all their chips on the table for this year, as though it is some fleeting opportunity that they need to take advantage of or it will be gone, completely misses the mark, IMO.

Also, the strength of the current team is their defense. Yes, they got off to a bad start (great discussion with Sarich on 960 this morning by the way), but they are rolling now. Since Dec 4th, they are second in the league defensively. Breaking that up, in order to add a scoring winger, seems short-sighted and undirectional to me.

What the Flames should be trying to do, IMO, is ADD to this core. If they can bring in a scoring winger without giving up a key piece or busting up the defensive core that they have built, that could really elevate them into contender status right away. Easier said than done though.
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