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Old 01-14-2019, 06:17 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary View Post
I thought the prevailing logic is that you can reduce the dollar value by giving up UFA years?

Maybe i am too optimistic, but hopefully playing in city he likes with a great group of guys would trigger the proverbial "Hometown discount"...?

hoping Tre can work some magic
If anyone can do it it’s Treliving
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:44 PM   #602
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pretty sure that’s every GM’s plan with every player save for maybe a long-time franchise player (Crosby, Ovi etc...)
How come we don't see it happen more often? A team like the blackhawks, although not completely done, are fooling themselves into trying to be just good enough for a couple of years before becoming awful. Why not sink the ship today by trading value for youth and picks?

The Canucks holding onto the Sedin twins who my understanding were open to being traded as long as it was a package deal.

The Kings holding onto Kopitar and Brown

Buffalo possibly holding onto Skinner to lose him for nothing.

The Canes holding onto Ferland if no extension is in place.

The Flames holding onto Iginla 1 year too long

What I am saying is I would never leave my team up to chance and hope someone is going to resign who holds significant value or hold onto a player that is worth a 1st rounder today and a 2nd rounder next year while rebuilding.


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Wait a minute... Is this the same advice you give your real estate clients?
The attempt of a joke must have went over my head.... yes, there are plenty of situations where letting go of a property at the right time makes sense.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:38 PM   #603
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The Canucks holding onto the Sedin twins who my understanding were open to being traded as long as it was a package deal.

Your understanding would be wrong.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:21 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Travis Munroe View Post
How come we don't see it happen more often? A team like the blackhawks, although not completely done, are fooling themselves into trying to be just good enough for a couple of years before becoming awful. Why not sink the ship today by trading value for youth and picks?

The Canucks holding onto the Sedin twins who my understanding were open to being traded as long as it was a package deal.

The Kings holding onto Kopitar and Brown

Buffalo possibly holding onto Skinner to lose him for nothing.

The Canes holding onto Ferland if no extension is in place.

The Flames holding onto Iginla 1 year too long

What I am saying is I would never leave my team up to chance and hope someone is going to resign who holds significant value or hold onto a player that is worth a 1st rounder today and a 2nd rounder next year while rebuilding.




The attempt of a joke must have went over my head.... yes, there are plenty of situations where letting go of a property at the right time makes sense.
Its loyalty to the players that stuck by the team and put their best years into these organizations. It can be hard to uproot their lives after they have been loyal to you if they aren't interested in leaving. Its not always just business there is a human factor. Look at the Raptors trading DeRozan, they are a better team for it but to him they stabbed him in the back and a lot of the players didn't like it and took notice.

Last edited by Psytic; 01-14-2019 at 09:28 PM. Reason: In the Hawks, Kings and Canucks cases
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:06 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Travis Munroe View Post

The attempt of a joke must have went over my head.... yes, there are plenty of situations where letting go of a property at the right time makes sense.
The joke is that every NHL GM wants to borrow your crystal ball, because everyone wants to sell high on everything.
Even the best in any business don't know when the drop is going to actually happen, so to say that a GM should get rid of player x before he sucks is like saying sell your property before prices drop. Obvious, but not really obvious. Some people wanted Giordano exposed (gone) in the Vegas draft. That would look pretty silly today.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:39 PM   #606
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I don't see how it's under $8.5 at 8 years. I believe our win will be if we get him under nine. I don't buy these poster predictions of following past Flame signing rules that brings him under 8. Just can't see it.

It's a new market since those signings and deals are way more calculated now to the point where you can almost predict them within a couple hundred thousand based on stats (I think there's a guy who's been very successful at it).

If Tkachuk stays like this for the rest of the season he'll be above a PPG player and he will be calculated in the high $8's/low to mid 9's at 8 years and we will pay something around there.

None of this $7.15-$7.75 stuff.
High 8's to low 9's would be UFA numbers. He still has 4 additional RFA years. But you are right that it won't be 7.15 either. At this point, the dream would be 8 X 8, but if Treliving is in a pinch, he may go shorter to reduce the cap hit.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:29 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by 4X4 View Post
The joke is that every NHL GM wants to borrow your crystal ball, because everyone wants to sell high on everything.
Even the best in any business don't know when the drop is going to actually happen, so to say that a GM should get rid of player x before he sucks is like saying sell your property before prices drop. Obvious, but not really obvious. Some people wanted Giordano exposed (gone) in the Vegas draft. That would look pretty silly today.
Right, but I am not saying to wait until they suck (see the players on the list I mention who didn't suck... just started to decline but still had significant value)

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Its loyalty to the players that stuck by the team and put their best years into these organizations. It can be hard to uproot their lives after they have been loyal to you if they aren't interested in leaving. Its not always just business there is a human factor. Look at the Raptors trading DeRozan, they are a better team for it but to him they stabbed him in the back and a lot of the players didn't like it and took notice.
I can understand this but is there not a long list of players who would want to be traded? Look at Iggy.... he spent the last bit of his career chasing a cup on the best team he could find. Is it just an awkward conversation for both sides to have so it isn't had? If you approach Iggy a year earlier and have the talk, does he not tell you that he himself has been thinking about it? Then you aren't stuck trading for pennies on the dollar.

What good reason is there to hold onto Toews and Kane if you were to approach them and they have no interest in being a part of a full rebuild? You can still show loyalty and trade them somewhere they would like to go vs another team in rebuild mode.

Anyway, I know there is no crystal ball for these things but am often confused by non contenders who hold onto a player with trade value in the last portion of their career.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:10 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Psytic View Post
Its loyalty to the players that stuck by the team and put their best years into these organizations. It can be hard to uproot their lives after they have been loyal to you if they aren't interested in leaving. Its not always just business there is a human factor. Look at the Raptors trading DeRozan, they are a better team for it but to him they stabbed him in the back and a lot of the players didn't like it and took notice.
Totally agree with what you’re getting at but don’t know if using what might arguably be looked at as the best trade in raptors history as an example works or not. It’s not like the Raptors were past their window of competing, problem was they just weren’t good enough in their window to win with DeMar, and I think that was the right evaluation. That said I think it’s pretty hard to trade franchise defining players against their wishes just because a proverbial window has closed.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #609
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This is going to be at least 8.5 aav. Maybe he does the deal at 8 if we give him 8 years.

Going to sting.

Why would paying a great player what he's worth sting?
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:39 AM   #610
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Totally agree with what you’re getting at but don’t know if using what might arguably be looked at as the best trade in raptors history as an example works or not. It’s not like the Raptors were past their window of competing, problem was they just weren’t good enough in their window to win with DeMar, and I think that was the right evaluation. That said I think it’s pretty hard to trade franchise defining players against their wishes just because a proverbial window has closed.

Maybe not the best trade to pick for my example but guys know what I was going for
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:45 AM   #611
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:48 AM   #612
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Totally agree with what you’re getting at but don’t know if using what might arguably be looked at as the best trade in raptors history as an example works or not. It’s not like the Raptors were past their window of competing, problem was they just weren’t good enough in their window to win with DeMar, and I think that was the right evaluation. That said I think it’s pretty hard to trade franchise defining players against their wishes just because a proverbial window has closed.
On a side note though if Leonard doesn't re-sign then they traded away a player that actually wanted to be in Toronto for one good season of Leonard (maybe they win the championship). So this could end up either really good or really bad for them.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:50 AM   #613
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I wonder if they would try to bridge Tkachuk, makes a bit of sense from the Flames' perspective. You sign him for three years which takes us to the end of Gaudreau's contract, aka our window, with a lower cap hit than signing him to a 6 or 7 year deal. At that point you can re-evaluate where the team is at, and probably then sign him to a major contract as the face and highest paid player on the team since I believe Gaudreau is unlikely to sign another contract with the Flames. It gives us cap flexibility now and also avoids having to pay Tkachuk off the strength of what very well could be a career year for him. Obviously that is just from the team's perspective, not sure what Tkachuk would expect, if he wants to sign to long term or bet on himself and try to get more a few years from now with a higher cap.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:57 AM   #614
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I wonder if they would try to bridge Tkachuk, makes a bit of sense from the Flames' perspective. You sign him for three years which takes us to the end of Gaudreau's contract, aka our window, with a lower cap hit than signing him to a 6 or 7 year deal. At that point you can re-evaluate where the team is at, and probably then sign him to a major contract as the face and highest paid player on the team since I believe Gaudreau is unlikely to sign another contract with the Flames. It gives us cap flexibility now and also avoids having to pay Tkachuk off the strength of what very well could be a career year for him. Obviously that is just from the team's perspective, not sure what Tkachuk would expect, if he wants to sign to long term or bet on himself and try to get more a few years from now with a higher cap.
That 3 year window could open up some money for Brodie and Hamonic as well.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:30 PM   #615
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I wonder if they would try to bridge Tkachuk, makes a bit of sense from the Flames' perspective. You sign him for three years which takes us to the end of Gaudreau's contract, aka our window, with a lower cap hit than signing him to a 6 or 7 year deal. At that point you can re-evaluate where the team is at, and probably then sign him to a major contract as the face and highest paid player on the team since I believe Gaudreau is unlikely to sign another contract with the Flames. It gives us cap flexibility now and also avoids having to pay Tkachuk off the strength of what very well could be a career year for him. Obviously that is just from the team's perspective, not sure what Tkachuk would expect, if he wants to sign to long term or bet on himself and try to get more a few years from now with a higher cap.
It is a good idea in theory, but no team has bridged a guy with the numbers Tkachuk has, especially in this contract year. In fact, Larkin getting a 5 year deal is one of the shortest deals for any player who was a 1st round pick with a contract year better approaching PPG (Larkin was 0.77).
Players who were bridged were more in the 0.5 PPG range (Teravainen, Lindholm, JT Miller, etc.)

Perhaps a 5 year deal, trying to tie Tkachuk to the Gio cap may be the closest to a bridge we see.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:51 PM   #616
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I'll be cheesed if we see a 5 year deal just so they can shave 1.5m off the aav.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:52 PM   #617
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #618
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Its loyalty to the players that stuck by the team and put their best years into these organizations. It can be hard to uproot their lives after they have been loyal to you if they aren't interested in leaving. Its not always just business there is a human factor. Look at the Raptors trading DeRozan, they are a better team for it but to him they stabbed him in the back and a lot of the players didn't like it and took notice.
Winning heals a lot of sore feelings.

I'd love to seen an NHL franchise take the Patriots/Belichek approach. Old and fading? See ya. Want to be rewarded for past play? Not gonna happen.

Just shrewdly, rationally, and ruthlessly doing everything possible to field a winning team. No one player bigger than the team. Nothing interferes with the team and the team's future. If you don't like it, go ahead and move to a worse team for more money.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:00 PM   #619
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It is a good idea in theory, but no team has bridged a guy with the numbers Tkachuk has, especially in this contract year. In fact, Larkin getting a 5 year deal is one of the shortest deals for any player who was a 1st round pick with a contract year better approaching PPG (Larkin was 0.77).
Players who were bridged were more in the 0.5 PPG range (Teravainen, Lindholm, JT Miller, etc.)

Perhaps a 5 year deal, trying to tie Tkachuk to the Gio cap may be the closest to a bridge we see.
Yeah and that's the downside, it might be interpreted by Tkachuk as disrespect given that its so outside the norm. Just seems to make a lot of sense from the team perspective to try and preserve as much cap as possible for our window. And I'd want to stay away from a 5 year deal because to the extent of my understanding that would take him to UFA.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:04 PM   #620
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I'll be cheesed if we see a 5 year deal just so they can shave 1.5m off the aav.
Yeah, we're already going to lose Gaudreau while he's likely a top ten forward in the league due to bringing the AAV down with less years.

*Unless it was Gaudreau's side that was never going to sign 7 or 8 years. Either way, if you have a proven star, pay the extra $1-$2 million and get him for eight years if they'll take it.
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