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Old 07-24-2019, 01:22 PM   #21
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I saw Bouchard at 5, and I was like not off to a good start and then I saw Fox at 10 and the article lost all credibility in my mind.
Well, this doesn't sound the least bit like a comment from a bitter Flames fan, so I think you're onto something. It must be that Wheeler just hates this franchise. Clearly the bias is his, not anyone's around here.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:28 PM   #22
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I know I'm being "that guy" but should we really be posting the entire list for an article that requires a subscription to read?
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by FanIn80 View Post
I know I'm being "that guy" but should we really be posting the entire list for an article that requires a subscription to read?
they're not posting what the writer had to say about each player, just the list of players.
I don't see the harm. whet's the appetite. If I then want the details, I can pay up.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:36 PM   #24
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I know I'm being "that guy" but should we really be posting the entire list for an article that requires a subscription to read?
Mods can remove my link if they feel it should be...
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:38 PM   #25
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they're not posting what the writer had to say about each player, just the list of players.
I don't see the harm. whet's the appetite. If I then want the details, I can pay up.
Precisely. The list is basically meaningless without the methodology and rationale.

Also I seriously don't understand why people who are big enough hockey fans to spend their time posting on an NHL fan message board don't have the Athletic. Trust me, it's worth it.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:41 PM   #26
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I'm fine with Adam Fox being ahead of Valimaki. Fox plays the right side, put up insane stats in the NCAA, and held his own at the world championship playing against professionals. Adam Fox will most likely seamlessly transition to the NHL as a powerplay specialist. His defensive zone game, while not physical, is above average. His stick positioning will be key.

Valimaki still has some growth to his game. He won't be as offensive as Adam Fox, which is probably why he is ranked lower. But his defensive side of the game surely has more potential than Adam Fox, especially in the physical aspect. Valimaki was a fully grown man at 17. He doesn't lay down bone crushing hits, but he is able to separate player from puck using his body, something that Fox struggles with. His defensive stick work and positioning will only get better with time. He is also a surprisingly dynamic skater with the puck which bodes well for our style of play. We need our defence to be able to jump into and sometimes lead the rush. He may not be the fastest skater but he is able to control and handle the puck at full speed, which is something we do not have nearly enough of as evidenced by Nathan Mackinnon skating circles around the team.

I like Valimaki and I think he is our future #1 LHD. But I have no problem with Fox being ahead of him.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
Well, this doesn't sound the least bit like a comment from a bitter Flames fan, so I think you're onto something. It must be that Wheeler just hates this franchise. Clearly the bias is his, not anyone's around here.
This is Flames fan bias and I'm far from a draft expect like many here but Bouchard is pretty overrated IMO, and I'd take Valimaki over Fox.

Bouchard had a huge draft year but because of his last birthdate some dominance can be chalked up to that. His PPG actually dropped from his 17/18 draft year to 18/19 draft +1. There could be mitigating for that drop, I don't know, but it's not what you want to see after a guys been draft.

As for Valimaki > Fox.. I've just been so imrpessed by Valimaki since he stepped onto NHL ice. I know Fox has put up massive points by Jusso looks like the entire damn package.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:45 PM   #28
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I think you’re right. How many stud d men have come out of NCAA hockey? A handful? I think the college game is great for guys like Fox. But when he has Lucic bearing down on him with bad intentions (yeah I said it) will he make the same slick plays? I don’t think so.
Schultz and Makar immediately come to mind.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:46 PM   #29
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The scouts did a helluva job with Fox.

Apart from the bit where he would never sign for anyone but the Rangers.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:53 PM   #30
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Schultz and Makar immediately come to mind.
Or Ryan Suter. Or Chris Chelios. Or Brian Leetch. Or Rob Blake. Heck, Duncan Keith played 2 years at Michigan. As far as emerging stars, Charlie McAvoy is looking pretty good in Boston these days.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
Apart from the bit where he would never sign for anyone but the Rangers.
meh! Don't care about that. Would still draft him in that spot 100/100.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:07 PM   #32
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Or Ryan Suter. Or Chris Chelios. Or Brian Leetch. Or Rob Blake. Heck, Duncan Keith played 2 years at Michigan. As far as emerging stars, Charlie McAvoy is looking pretty good in Boston these days.
Yeah you’ve got each decade covered.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:20 PM   #33
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Yeah you’ve got each decade covered.
If you can retaliate with a longer list of high scoring NCAA defensemen who didn’t become impact NHLers you’d have a point.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:35 PM   #34
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Easy. Some people judge prospects heavily based on stats. Fox has some pretty outrageous scoring stats in college.

But scouting shouldn’t be done based on stats. Valimaki is miles ahead of Fox.
People like Wheeler and Pronman also like to hype up guys who weren't drafted high or the diamonds in the rough.

It makes them look smarter if these guys eventually boom.

Everyone can call a first round pick a top prospect, but if you call a third round pick a top ten guy and it happens, well you have such a great eye for talent.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:36 PM   #35
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Lol fox and fabbro ahead of valimaki, ridiculous!
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:51 PM   #36
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Mods can remove my link if they feel it should be...
Which I did.
Lists like these are a big part of the material that these sites are charging for - and we should respect that. The costs aren't high but if they can't charge for it - the material will go away.

Any cutting and pasting, except for what they are showing as an intro to their stories, should be avoided.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:51 PM   #37
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If you can retaliate with a longer list of high scoring NCAA defensemen who didn’t become impact NHLers you’d have a point.
Not looking to start a bun fight.

I don’t think the NCAA has historically pumped out stud NHL defensemen. I suggested there was a handful and you listed 2, and CHL listed another 6 examples. I know there’s more, like Werenski, Carle, Shattrnkirk.

I actually had a cursory look and it’s true, there aren’t I couldn’t see many high scoring NCAA d men who didn’t go on and have an impact in the NHL. But there are also not very many high scoring NCAA d men.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:05 PM   #38
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The NCAA isn't a major source of hockey talent compared to the CHL, so it stands to reason that it's not going to pump out a whole bunch of guys. But in addition to some great players like those mentioned above, it has produced plenty of good NHL careers (guys like Orpik, Johnson, Bieksa, Niskanen, off the top of my head, have all had respectable several-hundred-game careers, mostly in the top 4).

It's just the nature of the NCAA that it's basically going to only be USA talent, and until recently that's not been a huge chunk of the league. Even then, not all USA talent goes through that system. So it's a smaller pool to draw from overall. On the whole I don't think the NCAA has been any better or worse at producing good d-men than forwards.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #39
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I'm fine with Adam Fox being ahead of Valimaki. Fox plays the right side, put up insane stats in the NCAA, and held his own at the world championship playing against professionals. Adam Fox will most likely seamlessly transition to the NHL as a powerplay specialist. His defensive zone game, while not physical, is above average. His stick positioning will be key.

Valimaki still has some growth to his game. He won't be as offensive as Adam Fox, which is probably why he is ranked lower. But his defensive side of the game surely has more potential than Adam Fox, especially in the physical aspect. Valimaki was a fully grown man at 17. He doesn't lay down bone crushing hits, but he is able to separate player from puck using his body, something that Fox struggles with. His defensive stick work and positioning will only get better with time. He is also a surprisingly dynamic skater with the puck which bodes well for our style of play. We need our defence to be able to jump into and sometimes lead the rush. He may not be the fastest skater but he is able to control and handle the puck at full speed, which is something we do not have nearly enough of as evidenced by Nathan Mackinnon skating circles around the team.

I like Valimaki and I think he is our future #1 LHD. But I have no problem with Fox being ahead of him.
I don't know that I'm 100% convinced Fox is and will be the superior offensive D man vs Jusso. Jusso has put up some really nice years himself especially in the goal area as Fox appears to be an assist machine. Wish there was a better way to compare as I'm not sure Harvard is a fair comparison to the WHL, NHL and AHL in terms of competition. Jusso held his own very well playing against high competition in the AHL and his brief NHL stint before his injury.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:10 PM   #40
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The NCAA isn't a major source of hockey talent compared to the CHL, so it stands to reason that it's not going to pump out a whole bunch of guys. But in addition to some great players like those mentioned above, it has produced plenty of good NHL careers (guys like Orpik, Johnson, Bieksa, Niskanen, off the top of my head, have all had respectable several-hundred-game careers, mostly in the top 4).

It's just the nature of the NCAA that it's basically going to only be USA talent, and until recently that's not been a huge chunk of the league. Even then, not all USA talent goes through that system. So it's a smaller pool to draw from overall. On the whole I don't think the NCAA has been any better or worse at producing good d-men than forwards.
I do believe the NCAA will, like the US National Team Development Program, increase the numbers of NHL players they are producing going forward.
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