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Old 08-13-2019, 08:35 AM   #21
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but in weighing the system the Flames have a really poor group of prospects and little balance in that group.
Not making excuses but when you move five (5!) players from your prospect group to main roster in a year the prospect group is going to be thin. Even a year ago with Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington, Dube and Mangiapane listed as prospects our group wasn't that well thought of, so these lists are just... nothing. Yes Treliving has dealt away plenty of picks but his scouting staff have -- thankfully -- made the picks they have counted.

Calgary drafted a mere five times in 2015, didn't have a pick until the 53rd selection but have three NHL players from it four years later. Impressive. Pronman ranked our system 27th a year ago, despite those five players listed as prospects. It's totally fair to question his knowledge of our system. Perhaps down the line 2019s rankings will look equally as wrong when Jakob Pelletier establishes himself as an NHL'er by 19/20 and Dustin Wolf emerges as a star for the US World Juniors.

Besides, only teams that draft in the top couple of spots have "sure fire" prospects anyway, so that's not an issue for me.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:08 PM   #22
Enoch Root
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Gaudreau
Monahan
Ferland (resulted in Lindholm)
Tkachuk
Bennett
Jankowski
Mangiapane
Dube
Hathaway
Valimaki
Andersson
Kylington
Kulak
Rittich

have all graduated from the prospect pool in the last 6 years (and I have probably forgotten some)

That's 3 forward lines, 2 pairs of D, and a goalie. In 6 years.

The fact that the prospect pool is now substantially depleted is not a surprise, and nor should it be considered a red flag or black mark on the organization. There are few teams that can present a similar list, with respect to both quality and quantity, across the league.
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Gaudreau
Monahan
Ferland (resulted in Lindholm)
Tkachuk
Bennett
Jankowski
Mangiapane
Dube
Hathaway
Valimaki
Andersson
Kylington
Kulak
Rittich

have all graduated from the prospect pool in the last 6 years (and I have probably forgotten some)

That's 3 forward lines, 2 pairs of D, and a goalie. In 6 years.

The fact that the prospect pool is now substantially depleted is not a surprise, and nor should it be considered a red flag or black mark on the organization. There are few teams that can present a similar list, with respect to both quality and quantity, across the league.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. That being said, it's about time to stop tossing around picks like Oprah on a cocaine binge.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:43 PM   #24
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The organization's amateur scouting has improved dramatically in recent years. First rounders panning out, and good NHL depth in the latter rounds. Even gems like Johnny.

Agreed though that now is the time to start hanging onto picks.
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:12 PM   #25
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Why is it called a "farm system ranking" when it's really just a prospect ranking? If its purpose is to rank the farm systems it shouldn't include players like Hughes or Kakko. They'll never see one minute on the farm, in all likelihood. Their successes or failures will have nothing to do with the quality of the farm system.

Maybe it's just semantics but it annoyed me nonetheless.

In any case, the Flames' system is pretty thin these days. We're going to need some fast and maybe unexpected risers to give us very much to get excited about on the farm.
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:55 PM   #26
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I don't understand how Wolf is a top 5 prospect on the team, when the Flames drafted him in the 7th round this year
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:02 PM   #27
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Another throwaway summertime article by a hockey writer who has nothing to write about.
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:10 AM   #28
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Not sure why people are getting offended. Top teams usually have weaker prospect pools. I'd assume the reasons are obvious?
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JD View Post
Why is it called a "farm system ranking" when it's really just a prospect ranking? If its purpose is to rank the farm systems it shouldn't include players like Hughes or Kakko. They'll never see one minute on the farm, in all likelihood. Their successes or failures will have nothing to do with the quality of the farm system.

Maybe it's just semantics but it annoyed me nonetheless.

In any case, the Flames' system is pretty thin these days. We're going to need some fast and maybe unexpected risers to give us very much to get excited about on the farm.
It is semantics.

Hughes is currently considered part of New Jerseys farm system. No one knows for sure if he makes the team. He could get injured.

And where would you draw the line?

They aren't ranking the teams ability to manage and develop prospects. They are ranking the current prospects.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:33 AM   #30
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Yeah I don't have a problem with Hughes and Kakko.

But I do think they should call it prospects and not farm system, because farm system sort of suggests players that have turned pro.

Calgary has Stockton and a bit of Kansas City for players that are in their farm system this year. Junior kids are only on emergency and after they sign.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:34 AM   #31
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What a terrible job, I dont disagree that the Heat have taken a hit but that is because most of the guys are in the NHL
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:02 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Gaudreau
Monahan
Ferland (resulted in Lindholm)
Tkachuk
Bennett
Jankowski
Mangiapane
Dube
Hathaway
Valimaki
Andersson
Kylington
Kulak
Rittich

have all graduated from the prospect pool in the last 6 years (and I have probably forgotten some)

That's 3 forward lines, 2 pairs of D, and a goalie. In 6 years.

The fact that the prospect pool is now substantially depleted is not a surprise, and nor should it be considered a red flag or black mark on the organization. There are few teams that can present a similar list, with respect to both quality and quantity, across the league.
2 players per years is essentially average roster turnover.

Why don't you give us some league comparables?

I'll start with the 4 conference finals qualifiers from last year, going back 6 years.

St. Louis:

Carrier
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Thompson (resulted in O'Reilly)
Thomas
Parayko
Blais
Schmaltz
Lindbohm


Carolina:

Svechnikov
Hanifin
Aho
Fleury
Foegele
Wallmark
Lindholm
Pesce
(Di Giuseppe)
McGinn
Slavin


Washington:

Vrana
Burakovsky
Bowey
Sanford
Forsberg
Wilson
Stephenson
Djoos
Carrick


Bruins:

McAvoy
DeBrusk
Carlo
Pastrnak
Donato
Heinen
Bjork
Subban
Grzelcyk
Benning
Forsbacka-Karlsson

--------------


What you're describing from the flames is standard roster turnover for the rest of the league, it just looks unique in Calgary because the Flames have been doing things wrong for 25 years.

With just 2 of their last 15 picks being in the top 2 rounds, and 8 of the players on your list picked in those rounds, do you think the Flames will continue to graduate players at a comparable rate to the rest of the league, or is that starting to look like a problem?
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:15 AM   #33
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We have two threads side by side on the main board.

One is the Flames prospect thread where the top 3 voted prospects by the board are Valimaki, Dube and Kylington.

Right next to that thread is the ranking of the flames prospect pool which has everyone making excuses that the prospect pool looks weak because Dube, Kylington and Valimaki have all graduated.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:23 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
We have two threads side by side on the main board.

One is the Flames prospect thread where the top 3 voted prospects by the board are Valimaki, Dube and Kylington.

Right next to that thread is the ranking of the flames prospect pool which has everyone making excuses that the prospect pool looks weak because Dube, Kylington and Valimaki have all graduated.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
This is the whole crux of the discussion. The board views those three to still be prospects. This particular list doesn't consider them to be so and considers them graduated.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
2 players per years is essentially average roster turnover.

Why don't you give us some league comparables?

I'll start with the 4 conference finals qualifiers from last year, going back 6 years.

St. Louis:

Carrier
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Thompson (resulted in O'Reilly)
Thomas
Parayko
Blais
Schmaltz
Lindbohm


Carolina:

Svechnikov
Hanifin
Aho
Fleury
Foegele
Wallmark
Lindholm
Pesce
(Di Giuseppe)
McGinn
Slavin


Washington:

Vrana
Burakovsky
Bowey
Sanford
Forsberg
Wilson
Stephenson
Djoos
Carrick


Bruins:

McAvoy
DeBrusk
Carlo
Pastrnak
Donato
Heinen
Bjork
Subban
Grzelcyk
Benning
Forsbacka-Karlsson

--------------


What you're describing from the flames is standard roster turnover for the rest of the league, it just looks unique in Calgary because the Flames have been doing things wrong for 25 years.

With just 2 of their last 15 picks being in the top 2 rounds, and 8 of the players on your list picked in those rounds, do you think the Flames will continue to graduate players at a comparable rate to the rest of the league, or is that starting to look like a problem?
Maybe I'm just being simple, but to me the Flames having 14 players on their list is better than the lists you have provided as a comparable.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:35 AM   #36
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Take that Seattle!
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:36 AM   #37
Enoch Root
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
2 players per years is essentially average roster turnover.

Why don't you give us some league comparables?

I'll start with the 4 conference finals qualifiers from last year, going back 6 years.

St. Louis:

Carrier
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Thompson (resulted in O'Reilly)
Thomas
Parayko
Blais
Schmaltz
Lindbohm


Carolina:

Svechnikov
Hanifin
Aho
Fleury
Foegele
Wallmark
Lindholm
Pesce
(Di Giuseppe)
McGinn
Slavin


Washington:

Vrana
Burakovsky
Bowey
Sanford
Forsberg
Wilson
Stephenson
Djoos
Carrick


Bruins:

McAvoy
DeBrusk
Carlo
Pastrnak
Donato
Heinen
Bjork
Subban
Grzelcyk
Benning
Forsbacka-Karlsson

--------------


What you're describing from the flames is standard roster turnover for the rest of the league, it just looks unique in Calgary because the Flames have been doing things wrong for 25 years.

With just 2 of their last 15 picks being in the top 2 rounds, and 8 of the players on your list picked in those rounds, do you think the Flames will continue to graduate players at a comparable rate to the rest of the league, or is that starting to look like a problem?
So 4 examples, averaging roughly 30% fewer graduates. Cool.

By the way, we can add Granlund, and arguably Broissoit, to the Flames list.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:46 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
We have two threads side by side on the main board.

One is the Flames prospect thread where the top 3 voted prospects by the board are Valimaki, Dube and Kylington.

Right next to that thread is the ranking of the flames prospect pool which has everyone making excuses that the prospect pool looks weak because Dube, Kylington and Valimaki have all graduated.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
Do you ever get tired of being the "Voice of Reason" for the board ?

It's simple. Two lists, with different criteria used for the rankings.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:48 AM   #39
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So 4 examples, averaging roughly 30% fewer graduates. Cool.

By the way, we can add Granlund, and arguably Broissoit, to the Flames list.
Baertschi as well.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:49 AM   #40
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Maybe I'm just being simple, but to me the Flames having 14 players on their list is better than the lists you have provided as a comparable.
But Calgary is doing this as a non playoff, rebuilding roster. They SHOULD be graduating more players as the team has had lots of spots to fill.

Since the 2012 draft they've won a combined 5 playoff games.

The Blues have won the cup and been to the 3rd round
The Bruins have lost in the final twice
The Caps have won the cup and missed the playoffs 1 time

The Hurricanes have been in a similar situation as the Flames and have drafted better and their ownership is an unmitigated disaster.

It's really great that the Flames sold hard for a couple of years and drafted the bulk of their graduating class in a couple of years. It's not great that they have since sold most of their picks just to get their heads above water.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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