Football Players & Eye Black: Racist?

[TheSutterDynasty]

Alright I will concede that the animal costume example is a bad one as it's detracting from some of my other examples.

Can we talk about a non-marginalized race or ethnicity instead? Like obviously turtles don't have the capacity to be affected by my costume. Although we talk like it's ridiculous but I can't help but think there are some extreme animal rights activists that may have something to say about it.

So what about face makeup for another group? When does a costume become a mockery?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I can tell you with absolute certainty in talking with football players of all ages including several pro, that there is absolutely zero racial component to the makeup and no thought put into it from that perspective.

Alright fair enough. And it sounds like based on some of the Trudeau vs Aliu's equipment manager discussion then intent would matter at least a little bit. ie the punishment was worse for the latter given he was mocking Aliu.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I'm not sure why the response is what it is.

I would have never guessed that an Aladdin costume would be deemed so racist. So consider this me getting ahead of the way social norms are progressing. That way I won't be caught in 10 years from now and ostracized.

"I'd like to continue being a racist without being labelled as such. How do I do that?"

[topfiverecords]

You’re all racist, using black text for your posts.

[Philly06Cup]

Bold opinion: Painting your face dark is not inherently racist or offensive.

From what I've read, which goes beyond wikipedia, the history of blackface is that white minstrels would parodize blacks as a cartoony inferior class of humans, often depicting them as lazy and amoral. Treating someone as less-than because of their skin-color is horrible. Thinking someone is less-than because of their skin-color is horrible. Proliferating that message is horrible. That's the deep end of the spectrum of blackface. Real hateful racism.

I sincerely do not believe that Trudeau or that equipment manager deep down believe that people of color are inferior or want to propogate this message.

Blackface is still offensive if it serves to reduce a human being to less than who they are. This is especially mean-spirited if they can't help the way they are different. I'm Asian and I've had random strangers make squinty eyes at me and say 'Ching Chong Bing Bong'. It's hurtful and it sucks. They are reducing my whole identity to my race, then treating me like an outsider because of it. Do I think these people hate me and think less of me because of my race? No. I liken it to all other forms of bullying. People get bullied for having lisps, or crooked teeth, or a rash, or other conditions that make them different. People are predisposed to form ingroups and mistreat others for being outsiders. These people don't have a deep-seeded hatred of people with lisps or squinty eyes -- they just haven't learnt good manners or tolerance. Bullies are bullies, and I don't necessarily think that bullying based on race is any more evil or hurtful than other forms of bullying.

Based on what I know of his actions, this is where I would put in the equipment manager.

Treat others individuals with respect. Treat other individuals as whole people. Don't reduce others to their skin color as a means of belittling them for being different. That's it. It's not the painting of the skin -- it's the intention and reasoning of the actions that are hurtful. Mental health issues are important, and repeatedly bullying someone for their skin color.. that creeps into the territory of hate.


What about Trudeau's blackface?

Historically, most of the time when someone has done blackface, it was in a offensive way. It doesn't mean that everytime someone does blackface that it is offensive. Sadly, in today's society, this is no longer true because people don't take the time to tell the difference and will just get offended anyway.

But even if blackface is done without ill-intention, it can still lead to negative outcomes. People who lived through racist times can be reminded of very emotional memories. It can lead to copycat behaviors and inadvertantly promote a more intolerant society. If you present yourself blackface to a stranger, given its history, you are highly likely to be misinterpreted and will still offend someone. There are a lot of cons, and not a whole lot of pros, so why do it at all.

I think Trudeau's actions mostly fall into this. Given his repeat history of blackface, I think the previous category might also apply, but it's hard to tell for sure. Trudeau is also the PM -- he needs to be held to a higher standard and should set a better example -- but I don't consider his actions that harmful or racist. I think it's important to ask questions and consider the context and motivations. People need to chill out and think. There is some overlap but the last scenario of blackface does not equal to the first or second.

[OMG!WTF!]

Can we talk about a non-marginalized race or ethnicity instead? Like obviously turtles don't have the capacity to be affected by my costume. Although we talk like it's ridiculous but I can't help but think there are some extreme animal rights activists that may have something to say about it.

"Non marginalized" ethnic groups like animal rights activists? Are you trying to piss absolutely everyone off? No one is as stupid as you think. Which is weird. Because usually there is no limit to how stupid people are.

[PsYcNeT]

Should have workshopped this thread a bit longer on /pol/.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Alright I will concede that the animal costume example is a bad one as it's detracting from some of my other examples.

Can we talk about a non-marginalized race or ethnicity instead? Like obviously turtles don't have the capacity to be affected by my costume. Although we talk like it's ridiculous but I can't help but think there are some extreme animal rights activists that may have something to say about it.

So what about face makeup for another group? When does a costume become a mockery?



Alright fair enough. And it sounds like based on some of the Trudeau vs Aliu's equipment manager discussion then intent would matter at least a little bit. ie the punishment was worse for the latter given he was mocking Aliu.

This makes absolutely no sense

[btimbit]

Thanks for the early Monday morning laughs guys. A+ troll thread

[Looch City]

I feel like your argument is basically that this is all a "slippery slope".

Like what's next, I can't go sun tanning because I may get too dark and darker people will find it offensive? Then cats and dogs will be getting married and really where will it stop??

[undercoverbrother]

If we ignore this thread will it go away?

[The Yen Man]

Lol, I know what you're trying to do, and it isn't very clever. You're just trolling people who aren't giving Trudeau a pass on his blackface incident. Just admit you were ok with Trudeau dressing up that way, and be done with it.

And your so called argument about the black liner thing is just so dumb. Why not go full stupid and take it a step further and say you want to debate whether someone wearing a black t-shirt should be considered racist?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

I feel like your argument is basically that this is all a "slippery slope".

Like what's next, I can't go sun tanning because I may get too dark and darker people will find it offensive? Then cats and dogs will be getting married and really where will it stop??

Right? Like this bit.

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

-snip-


I'm not surprised blackface is offensive, I'm more surprised at how bad people perceive it when worn in a costume. It used to be a common thing 50 years ago and our idea of what is wrong has changed a lot (which is obviously good). So who's to say an animal costume won't be offensive next? Just look at the vegan movement.

That's also ignoring the other examples I brought up.

If we allow gays to marry, what's next? People marrying dogs????

[ResAlien]

Pretty pathetic troll attempt, didn’t even get a single authentic bite. Tower or mikey would be embarrassed. Buddy should stick to what he knows, maybe a thread preaching about nutrition or air squats or where to get the best gear.

[ResAlien]

Thread so bad it forced a double post.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

"I'd like to continue being a racist without being labelled as such. How do I do that?"

By dressing in black face but saying you're dressed as Justin Trudeau in blackface. That is the loophole you're looking for.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Pretty pathetic troll attempt, didn’t even get a single authentic bite.

On the other hand, here we are on page 3 and counting...

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

On the other hand, here we are on page 3 and counting...

The cool kids are all on page 2.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Bold opinion: Painting your face dark is not inherently racist or offensive.

From what I've read, which goes beyond wikipedia, the history of blackface is that white minstrels would parodize blacks as a cartoony inferior class of humans, often depicting them as lazy and amoral. Treating someone as less-than because of their skin-color is horrible. Thinking someone is less-than because of their skin-color is horrible. Proliferating that message is horrible. That's the deep end of the spectrum of blackface. Real hateful racism.

I sincerely do not believe that Trudeau or that equipment manager deep down believe that people of color are inferior or want to propogate this message.

Blackface is still offensive if it serves to reduce a human being to less than who they are. This is especially mean-spirited if they can't help the way they are different. I'm Asian and I've had random strangers make squinty eyes at me and say 'Ching Chong Bing Bong'. It's hurtful and it sucks. They are reducing my whole identity to my race, then treating me like an outsider because of it. Do I think these people hate me and think less of me because of my race? No. I liken it to all other forms of bullying. People get bullied for having lisps, or crooked teeth, or a rash, or other conditions that make them different. People are predisposed to form ingroups and mistreat others for being outsiders. These people don't have a deep-seeded hatred of people with lisps or squinty eyes -- they just haven't learnt good manners or tolerance. Bullies are bullies, and I don't necessarily think that bullying based on race is any more evil or hurtful than other forms of bullying.

Based on what I know of his actions, this is where I would put in the equipment manager.

Treat others individuals with respect. Treat other individuals as whole people. Don't reduce others to their skin color as a means of belittling them for being different. That's it. It's not the painting of the skin -- it's the intention and reasoning of the actions that are hurtful. Mental health issues are important, and repeatedly bullying someone for their skin color.. that creeps into the territory of hate.


What about Trudeau's blackface?

Historically, most of the time when someone has done blackface, it was in a offensive way. It doesn't mean that everytime someone does blackface that it is offensive. Sadly, in today's society, this is no longer true because people don't take the time to tell the difference and will just get offended anyway.

But even if blackface is done without ill-intention, it can still lead to negative outcomes. People who lived through racist times can be reminded of very emotional memories. It can lead to copycat behaviors and inadvertantly promote a more intolerant society. If you present yourself blackface to a stranger, given its history, you are highly likely to be misinterpreted and will still offend someone. There are a lot of cons, and not a whole lot of pros, so why do it at all.

I think Trudeau's actions mostly fall into this. Given his repeat history of blackface, I think the previous category might also apply, but it's hard to tell for sure. Trudeau is also the PM -- he needs to be held to a higher standard and should set a better example -- but I don't consider his actions that harmful or racist. I think it's important to ask questions and consider the context and motivations. People need to chill out and think. There is some overlap but the last scenario of blackface does not equal to the first or second.

Ok this is a fantastic post and exactly the type of discussion I'm looking for. It perfectly highlights why blackface is bad and why blackface without ill intentions may still be bad. I think it brings the whole situation back down to earth. Thanks for a great answer.

So going beyond the situations that have already happened (since I think this is a very succinct summary and no one appears to have issues with it) and in order to avoid this thread going far too meta (which I fear had already happened).

What do you think about this scenario?

The year is 2007 and some University students are having a party. As it happens many of them are studying political science and will go on to become some high level politicians in 2019.

The theme of the party is "alcolympics". Everyone pairs up and dresses as a designated country and competes and different games.

Which of the following would be in trouble in their political career if pictures were unearthed during their political tenure?

One couple wears kimonos and dyes their hair black.

Another wears Australian "farmer" garb and talk with a bit of a mocking accent (ie saying the C word or other stereotypical Aussie things).

A third couple comes as the VERY stereotypical Russians. Track suit with adidas drinking from bottles of vodka. Constantly dropping "slav squats". They are light skinned already so no makeup is donned.

Another participant (who is 50% native) pours his beer into an empty listerine bottle and drinks from that all night as a joke.

Finally, two darker skinned partiers wear a lighter tone of whatever that makeup is called in order to look like more fair skinned Swedish athletes.

So who is in trouble for their costume, and more importantly, why?

[OMG!WTF!]

Oy vey....I studied Yiddish so I can say that.

[shermanator]

Threads like these make me wonder why I even bother going to CP anymore.