Football Players & Eye Black: Racist?

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm gonna need to make some time to read through your old posts. How have I never realized you were a complete lunatic until now? Were there signs that I missed? I'm genuinely curious.

Look, folks, I realize the content of this thread may be provocative to some readers but aren't comments like this exactly the point of all the recent political and social outrage?

In this case many of you are marginalizing certain people (ie thread creators) for a laugh. Isn't the whole idea of this movement to "treat people how you want to be treated"?

[CaptainCrunch]

Its not provocative at all, its silly.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I'm not sure why the response is what it is.

I would have never guessed that an Aladdin costume would be deemed so racist. So consider this me getting ahead of the way social norms are progressing. That way I won't be caught in 10 years from now and ostracized.



I'm not sure how that would be.

Hoping we can sort through this odd initial reaction to actually arrive at some educated conclusions.

Another one to try to fuel discussion: I have a coworker who, when discussing the Peters incident, says the N word in full when referring to what Peters had said. Everyone around at the time was white. Is that racist?

I don’t think an Aladdin costume is inherently racist. It becomes racist when you start painting your face.

[CaptainCrunch]

Oh and to your original point.



Of does it reduce glare?



https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...eyeblack2017-8

The verdict? While eye black does not appear to reduce glare, it does improve the ability to differentiate between light and dark.

On top of that there's no real like to eye paint being in any way racist or linked to race. White guys don't put it on because they feel it makes them black.


However when you have a white person wearing black face or black makeup and possibly parodying another race, that is racist, and links back to black face used by white actors in the silent film era to mock or exaggerate racial stereotypes.


Black charcoal paint or tape under the eyes has no link or basis in stereo types or racism, none.


Blackface makeup does.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I'm not sure why the response is what it is.

I would have never guessed that an Aladdin costume would be deemed so racist. So consider this me getting ahead of the way social norms are progressing. That way I won't be caught in 10 years from now and ostracized.



I'm not sure how that would be.

Hoping we can sort through this odd initial reaction to actually arrive at some educated conclusions.

Another one to try to fuel discussion: I have a coworker who, when discussing the Peters incident, says the N word in full when referring to what Peters had said. Everyone around at the time was white. Is that racist?

The reaction is because you’re being purposely ridiculous or ridiculous obtuse.

The educated conclusion should be clear from the reactions.

If you’re surprised that blackface in a costume is offensive, and are concerned dressing like a turtle might also be offensive, you either grasp these issues so poorly that the legwork to get you to a normalised place is not worth anyone’s time, or your being a troll and purposely marginalising these issues, which is also not worth anyone’s time.

Either way, grow up.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Look, folks, I realize the content of this thread may be provocative to some readers but aren't comments like this exactly the point of all the recent political and social outrage?

In this case many of you are marginalizing certain people (ie thread creators) for a laugh. Isn't the whole idea of this movement to "treat people how you want to be treated"?

No, what you're doing is a microcosm of what's tearing apart the fabric of our society and ability to discuss difficult subject matter and then progress as a people.

I mean that respectfully, I like you as a poster actually. But putting out what you know is a provocative, disingenuous opinion and then getting your back up and stating

In this case many of you are marginalizing certain people (ie thread creators) for a laugh

is BS. What you guys really need to start understanding as we painstakingly find a way to move forward in this chaotic online world is that you are not being marginalized for having a poor opinion/thread heavily criticized or mocked.

Marginalized is when a black man can't a job or respect in society so has nowhere to turn but gang life, and then his son falls into the same cycle. Guy posting provocative opinion on CP/social media is so ****ING far from being marginalized, it's insulting you'd even categorize it as such.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I'm not sure why the response is what it is.

I would have never guessed that an Aladdin costume would be deemed so racist. So consider this me getting ahead of the way social norms are progressing. That way I won't be caught in 10 years from now and ostracized.



I'm not sure how that would be.

Hoping we can sort through this odd initial reaction to actually arrive at some educated conclusions.

Another one to try to fuel discussion: I have a coworker who, when discussing the Peters incident, says the N word in full when referring to what Peters had said. Everyone around at the time was white. Is that racist?

If you're actually looking to understand systemic racism better, here is a starting place for you. A book to read over these holidays to start to understand what systemic racism actually is, so that you can understand instances of racism better.


Waking Up White, and Finding Myself in the Story of Race - by Debby Irving

For twenty-five years, Debby Irving sensed inexplicable racial tensions in her personal and professional relationships. As a colleague and neighbor, she worried about offending people she dearly wanted to befriend. As an arts administrator, she didn't understand why her diversity efforts lacked traction. As a teacher, she found her best efforts to reach out to students and families of color left her wondering what she was missing. Then, in 2009, one "aha!" moment launched an adventure of discovery and insight that drastically shifted her worldview and upended her life plan. In Waking Up White, Irving tells her often cringe-worthy story with such openness that readers will turn every page rooting for her-and ultimately for all of us.

[Erick Estrada]

Why is there no "0" star option for rating a thread? I even if it is described as "terrible" I feel rating this as one star is far too kind.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why is there no "0" star option for rating a thread? I even if it is described as "terrible" I feel rating this as one star is far too kind.

I never once noticed the thread rating button. So, having learned that here, this thread gets a 2.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I never once noticed the thread rating button. So, having learned that here, this thread gets a 2.

They took it away because poor posters were upset that their threads were being one starred, I believe.

[Jason14h]

You made me agree with every word PepsiFree posted and I never thought that would happen! You are bad and should feel bad .

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I don’t think an Aladdin costume is inherently racist. It becomes racist when you start painting your face.

Alright so clearly the line these days is coloring your entire face black. What I don't understand then is what causes it to cease being a costume with blackface? Because blackface used to be used to mock black people? What if I wear a kimono and dye my hair black? Or color my face a "non-marginalized" color (like green)?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Oh and to your original point.

Of does it reduce glare?

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...eyeblack2017-8

On top of that there's no real like to eye paint being in any way racist or linked to race. White guys don't put it on because they feel it makes them black.

However when you have a white person wearing black face or black makeup and possibly parodying another race, that is racist, and links back to black face used by white actors in the silent film era to mock or exaggerate racial stereotypes.

Black charcoal paint or tape under the eyes has no link or basis in stereo types or racism, none.

Blackface makeup does.

Thanks for the link and the discussion.

Unfortunately that article is just commentary. As far as I know, there are no studies that confirm it reduces glare. Even if it did, isn't there a component of looks to it? I think football players look way more intimidating with the eye black on.

Spoiler!

To me a lot of it looks like war paint. No one is trying to parody another race (nor are many people who are wearing a costume). It's a costume in the sense that if you're eye to eye with a guy wearing it then maybe it gives him a bit of a psychological edge due to prior connotations.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Alright so clearly the line these days is coloring your entire face black. What I don't understand then is what causes it to cease being a costume with blackface? Because blackface used to be used to mock black people? What if I wear a kimono and dye my hair black? Or color my face a "non-marginalized" color (like green)?

This is complete and utter bull****, everything you're posting points towards being upset that racism is being dealt with harshly these days. It's infuriating to read. ****ing black eye strips for football, painting your face green. Screw off with these comparisons.

Knock yourself out if you want to do them and don't argue in poor faith that we should look at getting rid of these absurd hypotheticals as a way to muddy and degrade the serious discussion surrounding racial abuse and intolerance.

It's transparent and horse**** and quite frankly insulting our intelligence the way you're trying to frame this. You don't like that racist acts are a huge deal now a days when they weren't always, and you're voicing your opinion, be genuine, be a man about it. This wishy washy "oh but what about this" is just weak and stupid.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by jayswin

No, what you're doing is a microcosm of what's tearing apart the fabric of our society and ability to discuss difficult subject matter and then progress as a people.

I mean that respectfully, I like you as a poster actually. But putting out what you know is a provocative, disingenuous opinion and then getting your back up and stating

is BS. What you guys really need to start understanding as we painstakingly find a way to move forward in this chaotic online world is that you are not being marginalized for having a poor opinion/thread heavily criticized or mocked.

Marginalized is when a black man can't a job or respect in society so has nowhere to turn but gang life, and then his son falls into the same cycle. Guy posting provocative opinion on CP/social media is so ****ING far from being marginalized, it's insulting you'd even categorize it as such.

Well in an online world where lines are so clearly delineated (as evidenced by people's response to this thread), isn't any insult meant to put someone down just plain old wrong? You can call me obtuse but if anything I'm being extra careful to not be racist. And I think there's been maybe three actual responses to me in this thread while the rests have been insults.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The reaction is because you’re being purposely ridiculous or ridiculous obtuse.

The educated conclusion should be clear from the reactions.

If you’re surprised that blackface in a costume is offensive, and are concerned dressing like a turtle might also be offensive, you either grasp these issues so poorly that the legwork to get you to a normalised place is not worth anyone’s time, or your being a troll and purposely marginalising these issues, which is also not worth anyone’s time.

Either way, grow up.

Well clearly it is worth your time since you posted.

I'm not surprised blackface is offensive, I'm more surprised at how bad people perceive it when worn in a costume. It used to be a common thing 50 years ago and our idea of what is wrong has changed a lot (which is obviously good). So who's to say an animal costume won't be offensive next? Just look at the vegan movement.

That's also ignoring the other examples I brought up.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Well in an online world where lines are so clearly delineated (as evidenced by people's response to this thread), isn't any insult meant to put someone down just plain old wrong? You can call me obtuse but if anything I'm being extra careful to not be racist. And I think there's been maybe three actual responses to me in this thread while the rests have been insults.

Can you with all honesty and integrity confirm that you have such a disdain for racism that you started this thread with the genuine intention of going further to prevent racist insensitive acts and dress?

I would be so highly surprised if that was the case, judging by the tone of your original post, but I guess I'd have to take you at face value if you suggest this a "wanting to be more racially sensitive" thread and not a "hating all the hoopla around racial insensitivity" thread, similar to what you see all over social media.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is complete and utter bull****, everything you're posting points towards being upset that racism is being dealt with harshly these days. It's infuriating to read. ****ing black eye strips for football, painting your face green. Screw off with these comparisons.

Knock yourself out if you want to do them and don't argue in poor faith that we should look at getting rid of these absurd hypotheticals as a way to muddy and degrade the serious discussion surrounding racial abuse and intolerance.

It's transparent and horse**** and quite frankly insulting our intelligence the way you're trying to frame this. You don't like that racist acts are a huge deal now a days when they weren't always, and you're voicing your opinion, be genuine, be a man about it. This wishy washy "oh but what about this" is just weak and stupid.

I'm telling you point blank that that's not my intent of the thread.

I certainly hope that I treat everyone the same regardless of color and that I'm helping society slowly abolish racism and marginalization. So self reflection of other little things that may be bad is a good thing, isn't it?

Originally Posted by jayswin

Can you with all honesty and integrity confirm that you have such a disdain for racism that you started this thread with the genuine intention of going further to prevent racist insensitive acts and dress?

I would be so highly surprised if that was the case, judging by the tone of your original post, but I guess I'd have to take you at face value if you suggest this a "wanting to be more racially sensitive" thread and not a "hating all the hoopla around racial insensitivity" thread, similar to what you see all over social media.

I think hoopla about racial insensitivity is a good thing. I mean, there are probably bigger issues we could talk about before emojis, but I'm a white dude in the first world so if you liken it to switching to bamboo straws to prevent global warning (which many people/corporations are doing) then isn't it a fair point?

[jayswin]

Actually, you know what, screw it, don't bother responding. I just reread your OP and saw the part about not dressing up as a ninja turtle because it's offensive to turtle species. You're exactly the person I first thought you were and there's no need take this any further.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I'm telling you point blank that that's not my intent of the thread.

I certainly hope that I treat everyone the same regardless of color and that I'm helping society slowly abolish racism and marginalization. So self reflection of other little things that may be bad is a good thing, isn't it?

Sorry man, you're are full of ****, as per the part below in your OP. Now way in hell you're being genuine when you're repeating the same BS that right wing people on social media parrot to muddy and degrade racial discussion. Not a chance I can believe you asked if dressing like a ninja turtle is okay because it's offensive to turtles was part of a genuine attempt to start a thread that aims to see what else we can do to make the world a better place for minorities.

I'm not buying it and I highly dought anyone else is, either.

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Along that line, what about 'alternative' colors. Example:

Spoiler!

Is this costume offensive to other species?

Any other examples of these sorts of things?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

...I'm not surprised blackface is offensive, I'm more surprised at how bad people perceive it when worn in a costume. It used to be a common thing 50 years ago and our idea of what is wrong has changed a lot (which is obviously good). So who's to say an animal costume won't be offensive next? Just look at the vegan movement...

You are drawing an outrageous false equivalency between animal costumes and blackface, or the colour "black" applied under the eyes in sports and blackface. This in itself is offensive. It trivializes the historical, dehumanizing roots of blackface by analogizing it to these other completely irrelevant incidents of black makeup and costumes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Alright so clearly the line these days is coloring your entire face black. What I don't understand then is what causes it to cease being a costume with blackface? Because blackface used to be used to mock black people? What if I wear a kimono and dye my hair black? Or color my face a "non-marginalized" color (like green)?



Thanks for the link and the discussion.

Unfortunately that article is just commentary. As far as I know, there are no studies that confirm it reduces glare. Even if it did, isn't there a component of looks to it? I think football players look way more intimidating with the eye black on.

Spoiler!

To me a lot of it looks like war paint. No one is trying to parody another race (nor are many people who are wearing a costume). It's a costume in the sense that if you're eye to eye with a guy wearing it then maybe it gives him a bit of a psychological edge due to prior connotations.

I can tell you with absolute certainty in talking with football players of all ages including several pro, that there is absolutely zero racial component to the makeup and no thought put into it from that perspective.



A lot of them wear it because they believe that it reduces glare athletes are always looking for what they believe is a mental edge, some as a game superstition. With some they will draw a symbol on their face that's meaningful. I know a player that's very christian and he draws crosses under his eyes as a request for blessing.


I know players that will draw the number of a fallen or injured team mate.


I knew one player that painted his whole face because he through it would be intimidating but there were no racial connotations. I think he tried to do a joker thing but it wasn't very good





You are completely stretching things with this. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that you are incredibly off base with what you're saying, and trying to create a narrative that has nothing to do with reality.