[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

.

I used to have some respect for Burke with all the work he does for the LGBT community etc., but the truth is he is just an ass who embarasses himself and does the team a disservice every time he opens his big mouth.

I guarantee you Burke is the type of guy that unless something directly effects him he wouldn't give two ####a about it. He only has great support for the LGBT community because his son Brendan was gay. He probably would never even support it if Brendan wasn't.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Seattle will have at least three, possibly four pro teams who will be more popular than an NHL team (don't underestimate the Sounders), and UW football has an elite coach and was just in the playoff. Seattle is not LA or NY or Chicago, there's only so much sports dollar to go around, and there's also more entertainment options besides sports in Seattle than there is in Calgary. The NHL team would need to be really good, really fast to not become a total afterthought in that market.

Also have to fight hard for corporate dollars. In Calgary, no offense to the Stamps, the Flames have no competition. I think you're confusing me thinking Seattle is a terrible market. Seattle is simply not a better market for an NHL team than Calgary by any objective analysis. Seattle as a market probably won't be awful like say Phoenix or Raleigh, but if everything were equal as an owner you'd much rather have an NHL team in Calgary than Seattle. You will make more money, possibly by far.

Seattle's economy is twice the size of Calgary's, and that's when Calgary's is booming. Seattle has a diversified economy, meaning it is less affected when one industry is hit by a recession or specific market forces. Calgary's economy is a one trick pony, and that pony is looking long in the tooth. With very little innovation and diversification taking place in the Calgary economy, the future is uncertain at best. People have been warning about the bottom dropping out of the O&G sector for decades, and the need to diversify, and Calgary has done nothing to do that. Couple that with a weak Canadian dollar, tied directly to the price of a barrel of oil, and you can see why the owners would be considering long term options. Better to be a small fish in a big pond with lots of water and food, than a big fish in a pond that has almost dried up.

[nik-]

Except when it comes to actual revenue, it's not.

[CroFlames]

Even if the Flames are gifted a new rink, they'll be playing 5th fiddle behind the Seahawks, Mariners, future basketball team, Sounders then the Flames. And it's not like Seattle has 18 million citizens either that can support that many teams.

That would be a dumb move and one that I doubt the owners would approve.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by New Era

Seattle's economy is twice the size of Calgary's, and that's when Calgary's is booming. Seattle has a diversified economy, meaning it is less affected when one industry is hit by a recession or specific market forces. Calgary's economy is a one trick pony, and that pony is looking long in the tooth. With very little innovation and diversification taking place in the Calgary economy, the future is uncertain at best. People have been warning about the bottom dropping out of the O&G sector for decades, and the need to diversify, and Calgary has done nothing to do that. Couple that with a weak Canadian dollar, tied directly to the price of a barrel of oil, and you can see why the owners would be considering long term options. Better to be a small fish in a big pond with lots of water and food, than a big fish in a pond that has almost dried up.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you think Winnipeg is a more stable, and likely successful market than Calgary since it sounds like you think Calgary as a market is headed for collapse. Well you certainly know we've reached the desperation portion of trying to get public money when we've arrived at the "trashing your own city phase" of arguments. Sounds like you don't particularly like Calgary at all. Perhaps you are the one who should move to a "better market"?

If Seattle were the homerun market you seem to think it is, why is there not a team there already? There are multiple franchises currently underwater financially, yet the apparently great market of Seattle remains vacant. Surely if this market were as exceptional as you make it out to be, there would be owners knocking down the door to come. But yeah, that's not what's happening. The renovated Key or new arena in Seattle will be entirely for a basketball team, the hockey team will be second fiddle in it's own building by a wide, wide margin. It's an empty threat market with a much higher likelihood of failure, and a virtual guarantee to make less money than Calgary.

I mentioned this already, but as you are one of the staunchest liberals on this board by a significant margin, you would go ape#### if any other private business that was already profitable was demanding a taxpayer handout to charge even more money and become even more profitable. Sports though? I bet you're cool with the city going bankrupt to fund CalgaryNEXT. Sports fries logic from brains, it's pretty amazing how much it blinds us sometimes.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

At the end of the day Burke is an inconsequential executive, of a hockey team that has a full hockey operations department running the team below him, paid a lofty salary by those of the community that volunteer their money to purchase tickets and suites, merchandise, sports packages from their cable provider, or GC/CI. He should consider showing us some respect.

The Flames should let Burke go. I don't see what he does for the team.
When Brad Treliving was new to the position I could see the mentor aspect, but at this point Burke is either a liability or simply dead weight.

If he wants to be a blowhard and buffoon, he should just become a TV talking head. the time for people like him is gone.

[Royle9]

Just in time, this is published this morning. Cant afford arena but we'll dump 245 million into a library because we NEED one that big and fancy:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ule-and-budget

Bring on the Library vs Arena debate all over again
This should rally the white knights.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Love

If it really did happen and the Flames ended up relocating to QC, the Coyotes would be on their way to Calgary in a fraction of a second lol.

Not without a new arena deal they wouldn't be. So let's skip the step of the Flames moving and let's get an arena deal done first.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Just in time, this is published this morning. Cant afford arena but we'll dump 245 million into a library because we NEED one that big and fancy:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ule-and-budget

Bring on the Library vs Arena debate all over again
This should rally the white knights.

bring it up again when the library is privately owned, you have to pay huge sums to get in, you have to pay to read each book you want, and the librarians make 5 million a year.

[Table 5]

People who equate public libraries with private sports arenas tend to come across as the the types of individuals who may benefit from visiting the former a bit more often.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Table 5

People who equate public libraries with private sports arenas tend to come across as the the types of individuals who may benefit from visiting the former a bit more often.

Hook, line and sinker. It has begun, cheers mate.

[Table 5]

cheerio!

[Hot_Flatus]

The Flames management group have the aura of a petulant child lashing out as they are unable to get their way. I would love to pitch a private funding venture to these loons using the same logic they are using on the all of us. Edwards would probably have his fluffer Ken King release the hounds within 10 seconds.

- Other cities have recognized the value but we are much smarter - Other cities bent over a barrel and glady took it from your fatcat pals. The value is certainly in their owners pockets.

- The value of the music centre is questionable long-term - any smart person would realize that there is 100 times the value to our city for this type of structure than giving the billionaire owners a new playhouse.

This team better tread lightly at this point. I'm on the verge of pulling the plug and I'm sure many fans are in the same boat. Even if they did walk away (which i'm sure the league would not allow) we would have another franchise heading our direction within the next 5-10 years anyway. Maybe this new team would actually be able to build a team capable of winning while they're at it.

[oldschoolcalgary]

mnm

[Incogneto]

What no one has brought up is the posturing being done by both the city and team until a decision on the 2026 Winter Olympics is decided (Later this year). If Calgary decides to bid on the Olympics there is a strong belief that they will easily win the bid. When that happens, the Federal Govt will chip in for the arena, which is a benefit to both the team and city.

If they DON'T proceed with the bid, the city and team figure it out. Either way, a new arena is being built.....we just have to wait to see who is footing the bill.

This is ALL about the Olympics at this point.

[troutman]

Sorry if posted already:

"Brian Burke runs Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames and he and many Calgarians have strong views about this topic. However, he is not our spokesperson regarding a new events centre for our city. We remain committed to our dialogue with the City and very optimistic we will get to a positive conclusion. We admire everyone's enthusiasm on this subject."


- Ken King, CSEC President & CEO

[Tron_fdc]

Burke's comment that tax payers in one city were smarter than tax payers in another really made me laugh.

Funny thing about it is he's 100% right. He just has his cities mixed up.

[DiracSpike]

If Seattle lost their basketball team to Oklahoma City, any team can leave any city. It's fine to have a hardline stance about public funds not going to arenas but you can't also act so morally outraged when the team begins to talk about leaving.

And if you think for one second any other team would move here after without an arena deal you're dreaming.

[Tinordi]

Moving the team is not a credible threat for about 10-20 very good reasons. Use your critical faculties.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So if I'm reading this correctly, you think Winnipeg is a more stable, and likely successful market than Calgary since it sounds like you think Calgary as a market is headed for collapse.

I don't think that at all. I was completely against Winnipeg getting a team again, and think it is a long term loser, certain to fold or move as it becomes a perennial bottom feeder. While it has a very substantial owner, committed to his community, the reality is that the team cannot generate the revenues to remain competitive, especially with a 35% operating penalty for generating those revenues in Canadian dollars while paying out a large percentage of expenses in American dollars. Winnipeg is loser. Period. Trying to compare Calgary to Winnipeg is exactly the reason it may fail as well.

Do I see a Calgary collapse in the future? Sadly I do see it happening to some extent. I know too many people in Calgary that have been unemployed for two years or more as the market for jobs tightens thanks to a failing O&G marketplace. I worked in the O&G sector for over a decade and know where the profitability numbers are, and with the price of oil, the future doesn't look good. With a total lack of economic diversification, Calgary is going to struggle. People like to think about Calgary as being similar to Houston or Denver, but I think Calgary is headed more toward the level as Oklahoma City.

Well you certainly know we've reached the desperation portion of trying to get public money when we've arrived at the "trashing your own city phase" of arguments. Sounds like you don't particularly like Calgary at all. Perhaps you are the one who should move to a "better market"?

I have already moved on to a "better market" for me and the lifestyle of my family. The Calgary that was "my own city" doesn't exist any more. The city has grown and changed to the point where the Calgary that currently exists is very different from the one I consider my city. I have great memories of Calgary, still have plenty of friends and ex-colleagues there, but the city is not the same one I remember. I can only speak to the city that exists right now, and do so in ways that based on the realities the current city faces.

Let's get something straight. Calgary, when booming, is a great market. When Calgary isn't booming, the place is, in your words, Winnipeg. That is what happens when you have an economy based on one market or product. If the O&G sector does not bounce back, and oil does not return to the $60 a barrel range (minimum), the potential for Calgary to remain a viable marketplace is negatively impacted. This is the reality that the city faces.

If Seattle were the homerun market you seem to think it is, why is there not a team there already?

For the exact same reason the Supersonics left. The current building is not viable for a professional sports team. This is the only reason there is not a basketball or hockey team there right now. The building is not capable of generating the revenues to support a major league franchise.

This is the point that Calgarians need to understand. If the Flames believe they can no longer be viable in the building they are currently in, and the league would fully vet this assumption, Calgary will be off every list for future expansion or relocation until the building issue is resolved. There is no Flames-move-and-Calgary-gets-an-expansion-team-or-relocation-of-an-existing-team scenario. The Flames leave and Calgary is without a major league team until they build an arena capable of supporting a major league team.

There are multiple franchises currently underwater financially, yet the apparently great market of Seattle remains vacant. Surely if this market were as exceptional as you make it out to be, there would be owners knocking down the door to come. But yeah, that's not what's happening. The renovated Key or new arena in Seattle will be entirely for a basketball team, the hockey team will be second fiddle in it's own building by a wide, wide margin. It's an empty threat market with a much higher likelihood of failure, and a virtual guarantee to make less money than Calgary.

You know for certain what the renovations are looking like? You are certain they will not be good for a hockey team? Considering Seattle has been talking about a hockey team as a co-tenant I seriously doubt they are going to do anything that would marginalize the viability of the building to support a hockey team.

As to Seattle, the city has three times the population of Calgary. Seattle has a GDP of just over $231B USD, or $311B CDN. Metro-Seattle has the economic might of Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon, Weyerhauser, Starbucks, and Northwest Seaport Alliance behind it, showing string diversification. That is without mentioning the military and government impact on the economy as well.

To Calgary's strength as a market, the GDP of the City is pegged at a number just over $115B CDN, or a shade over $85B USD.

I mentioned this already, but as you are one of the staunchest liberals on this board by a significant margin, you would go ape#### if any other private business that was already profitable was demanding a taxpayer handout to charge even more money and become even more profitable.

You don't know me, nor my politics. Don't mistake my disdain for the American political system and the bassackward way American "conservatives" view things for my take on everything or Canadian politics. I'm all about a fair system for everyone. I'm for effective systems and good governance, and I don't care whether those are handled by government or corporations (in the United States the line between each is extremely blurred which makes the political theatre too much at times). Do things that are good for everyone and provide value to the city and her citizens, and do so as cheaply as possible.

Having lived in many cities around North America I can tell you that a local professional sports team is extremely important to the city's reputation and the level of pride people have in their city. Having something that brings people together, regardless of the many things meant to divide us, is something that provides great value to a city. Too many on this board don't remember what it was like to not have a NHL team, and how painful it was to have to watch Edmonton or Vancouver.

Sports though? I bet you're cool with the city going bankrupt to fund CalgaryNEXT. Sports fries logic from brains, it's pretty amazing how much it blinds us sometimes.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Calgary should bankrupt itself to build a facility! Do what ever it takes!

My position has always been to make sure the city has venues that can support the interests of the community. The Flames and Stampeders both have some of the worst facilities in their respective leagues. The city of Calgary does not have a venue capable of holding a major concert act let alone a stadium show. Calgary doesn't even have a fieldhouse for crying out loud. This is a need. The city could use a well designed entertainment district, one with actual anchors that draw people to the location. My support of CalgaryNext was because it checked off many of the needs of the city in this regard. Was the proposal perfect? No. But the concept was one worthy of future exploration and negotiation.

My problem with plan B is that is it an empty plan. It focuses on checking one box. Many of the other problems still exist and are not addressed. I think Calgary needs to do everything it can to get the biggest bang for its buck, and I believe that comes from a multi-purpose facility with an integrated entertainment district like those that have been built in other cities around the world. Plopping an arena on a cramped piece of land just north of where the current arena is doesn't address many of the concerns the team has, nor address many of the entertainment challenges that face the city.

It is funny that you should say, "Sports fries logic from brains, it's pretty amazing how much it blinds us sometimes." All you have to do is look through these threads and see some of the ridiculous things said about the team, by people who at the same time are cheering their brains out for the team. They want to draw a line in the sand, and if the team doesn't comply, then #### 'em, let them move. This is a growing sentiment and a "cut-off-ones-nose-to-spite-their-face" type comment. It is not aligned with any sort of logic, especially when these same people are suggesting another team would just slide right into Calgary in a matter of months. That just isn't happening. The Flames leave and Calgary will be without a team for a good long time, probably long after a new arena is built. That is the reality to face, and people are not facing that reality. That is my biggest problem here to be honest with you. People are ignoring the reality of losing a team is very often a permanent state.