CWHL to discontinue operations

[Locke]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah I am all for womens hockey and the existing of it in any sustainable way.

I am just not sure what it is that can be done to get it to a standard that these women want (and deserve).

This is all about money and that means having a business model that allows them to exist the way they want too. So does that mean they want some one (NHL?) to take over and make that happen? What happens when/if they dont sell enough tickets/advertising/etc that allows the league to exist as its own separate entity?

Are the NHL/whomever owners now expected to foot the bills? Lose money so womens professional hockey can continue along unfettered?

Really not sure what the end game is here but I certainly hope they find a way to continue as i think its so important for all these young women/girls to have something to aspire to.

Heres the thing: I dont think anyone is belittling women's hockey or wanting to see it gone, but 'Deserve' is a strong term.

If they think they're entitled to more money then I think we're going to have to see something more concrete in terms of a business plan or strategy as to where that money is going to come from.

They dont sell many tickets because they're not a big draw, so maybe the wages they think they 'deserve' arent in line with the wages the market dictates are available?

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by psicodude

My completely uninformed take is that they are wanting the NHL to create a professional women's league. The problem is, as you state, that there is no demand here and therefore, no business case. The brutal truth is that the vast majority of the public only care about the women's game for about 8 days every 4 years.

I am sure they would love for the NHL to do that but my (little bit closer than you) take is that they really just want what is promised. This is a play to get the league to follow up on unfulfilled agreements and promises and I think it has more to do with pushing the league, follow up on the all star game momentum for example.

These players are asked to commit at a pro level for training, availability and fitness and the teams have not followed up on their side of the bargain and that is all the way from marketing to having proper access to trainers, medical, insurance etc.

The girls definitely make sacrifices and I understand that no one holds a gun to their head to play but they want the league (formally league) to crap or get off the pot, go hard or go home. A lot of them spend a lot of time and do what they can to push the game but even with that 95% of CP has no clue they existed.

I think they are not looking for living wages out of the chute, they will continue to sacrifice to grow, but they want the league to get busy promoting and building. They will never be the NHL but if they can build up to 5k at the games that would be a great start. You never see promotion, I do because I am pretty involved in female hockey but even then it was always through my facebook feed.

I really think the girls are gung ho and ready to sacrifice and commit and they just want the league and team leaders to get on board. It is not about pulling in fans who want to see NHL/WHL style hockey but there is a market for the game. It isn't necessarily better or worse, just different...my girls and their team mates loved it and were very disappointed when the Inferno folded. That said, another problem with the Inferno was game times and days of the week...they needed to work on that. Even with the best of intentions we could only hit 2-3 games a year with the schedule the way it was.

Anyway, two cents from a very involved female hockey Dad.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

They will never be the NHL but if they can build up to 5k at the games that would be a great start.

This is why I think they need to ignore big cities.

How many professional sports teams can you shove into one building before you’ve over supplied the demand?

Put some teams in the countless smaller Ontario cities, get some teams in the Maritimes, and maybe even Quebec City or Saskatchewan.

I feel like smallish cities would embrace the team, especially after the Olympics when their names are known everywhere.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah I am all for womens hockey and the existing of it in any sustainable way.

I am just not sure what it is that can be done to get it to a standard that these women want (and deserve).

This is all about money and that means having a business model that allows them to exist the way they want too. So does that mean they want some one (NHL?) to take over and make that happen? What happens when/if they dont sell enough tickets/advertising/etc that allows the league to exist as its own separate entity?

Are the NHL/whomever owners now expected to foot the bills? Lose money so womens professional hockey can continue along unfettered?

Really not sure what the end game is here but I certainly hope they find a way to continue as i think its so important for all these young women/girls to have something to aspire to.

they probably looking at this very thing. pointing to the fact that this is what the NBA does for the WNBA.

for context, there are 144 roster positions in the WNBA with an average yearly compensation of $116,000.
(also, the WNBA players are opting out of their collective bargaining agreement after the 2019 season as they say they are vastly underpaid.)

The hockey women want the resources that they "demand and deserve"
they better be clear on what that means.

so how much money would they expect the NHL to pay to make them happy with their overall compensation?

Let's say there are 250 roster spots at an average compensation of $125,000. add in what it would take to operate say 10 teams and perhaps a minor league, and their ask would be about 60 million a year?

is that a fair number to have the league/teams contribute every year to support and grow women's professional hockey? you could even make it a 10 year deal where league contributions decrease yearly with the goal to make the league self sustaining.

[Geeoff]

IMO women's sports are most successful when they play with the same rules as men.

A good example is MMA. The women are in there beating the #### out of each other just like the men. I don't think anyone would've bought Ronda Rousey's fights if there were rules preventing punches to the face or something.

[VladtheImpaler]

Fair enough. If all they want is more (better?) commitment from the NWHL/CWHL/Whatever WHL, that's a different story. There should be a niche there, and if you properly target it at young kids (and their parents) and have your games on weekend afternoons, you might be able to build some momentum. I notices the Roughnecks gave away tickets at my son's school, and he almost persuaded me to go. But the timing was bad. If the CWHL did something similar, my son would have certainly dragged us out to a game, and then, who knows, maybe we like it and are willing to spend a few bucks...

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

This is why I think they need to ignore big cities.

How many professional sports teams can you shove into one building before you’ve over supplied the demand?

Put some teams in the countless smaller Ontario cities, get some teams in the Maritimes, and maybe even Quebec City or Saskatchewan.

I feel like smallish cities would embrace the team, especially after the Olympics when their names are known everywhere.

At the same time though a smaller league can piggy-back off an anchor tenant that pays the lease and maintenance and try and limit travel costs?

The point at the end of the day though is that Hockey is a gate-driven league. You have to sell tickets and its tough to sell tickets to something few people are interested in or care about at a cost level that can attract people and retain talent.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Locke

Heres the thing: I dont think anyone is belittling women's hockey or wanting to see it gone, but 'Deserve' is a strong term.

If they think they're entitled to more money then I think we're going to have to see something more concrete in terms of a business plan or strategy as to where that money is going to come from.

They dont sell many tickets because they're not a big draw, so maybe the wages they think they 'deserve' arent in line with the wages the market dictates are available?

This is the rub...the league needs to provide the business plan and strategy and then actually execute. All the ladies I know would do anything asked of to promote the game. No doubt an initial backer with some cash will have to be found and the business plan has to make sense.

Agreed they will never, ever be a draw like the men but there is an untapped market sitting right around Calgary and area. 140+ players and growing just in Cochrane (15% of registration) and we are still, by a large margin, the smallest in the area...and they have to bring their families, they can't drive.

I know the Inferno tried but all of their positions in management were volunteer...only so much time in the day, only so much pavement they could pound. Any female teams will have to seriously tap into their local female committees for help to promote.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Fair enough. If all they want is more (better?) commitment from the NWHL/CWHL/Whatever WHL, that's a different story. There should be a niche there, and if you properly target it at young kids (and their parents) and have your games on weekend afternoons, you might be able to build some momentum. I notices the Roughnecks gave away tickets at my son's school, and he almost persuaded me to go. But the timing was bad. If the CWHL did something similar, my son would have certainly dragged us out to a game, and then, who knows, maybe we like it and are willing to spend a few bucks...

I had no idea the league existed until it folded.

If they could get the support of the NHL, having the promotional arm of the league work with them to build the market would be huge.

Geeoff also has a point. wonder if they'd consider playing under the same rules as the men do. or everything but fighting, anyway.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I had no idea the league existed until it folded.

If they could get the support of the NHL, having the promotional arm of the league work with them to build the market would be huge.

Geeoff also has a point. wonder if they'd consider playing under the same rules as the men do. or everything but fighting, anyway.

Agree...even of the NHL helped with promotion and didn't give a cent that would probably be a big help.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I don't understand. Do they want government subsidies? If nobody wants to pay to watch you play, you don't get to be a "professional". Nobody (so far) wants to pay to watch Slava and I play bridge, so until then we need to have other jobs to sustain ourselves.

This isn't aimed at the NHL or the fans or anything like that. This is aimed at the NWHL who apparently is a total gong show but think they can make a go at being an "independent" league.

Friedman and Marek talked about this on their podcast, they believe the NHL has a "break in case of emergency" plan for a women's league that would be similar to the WNBA (i.e. you can make a living but not be rich) but that they don't want to be viewed as competing with the CWHL and NWHL.

But...the NHL isn't going to promote and fund a league they don't control, and I don't blame them. There is a real opportunity here for professional women's hockey but there are stubborn people, specifically in the NWHL who aren't willing to give up control and are in the process, hurting the game long term.

The CWHL folding was the first step in getting the WNHL, the refugees from that league are telling the NWHL that their league sucks and we won't play for you for peanuts so just give it up and turn this thing over to the NHL.

[RyZ]

What kind of financial agreement did CSEC have with the Inferno? Did CSEC pay for travel? Equipment? There was already NHL involvement with a number of CWHL teams being owned by NHL teams (CGY, MTL, TOR and maybe BOS?).

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Locke

At the same time though a smaller league can piggy-back off an anchor tenant that pays the lease and maintenance and try and limit travel costs?.

Yes but in all the places I’ve mentioned they could piggy back off CHL rinks. Which are a much more appropriate size.

[Resolute 14]

Ugh. Can we either split this into its own topic or (less preferably) edit the title to something that actually reflects this new discussion? Megathreads suck.


Anyway, as pointed out on Reddit, this could be part of the motivating factor:

https://victorypress.org/2018/11/10/...-hall-of-fame/

"We've said repeatedly we would get involved in starting our own women's league, but it's not something we're going to do -- we're not going to interfere with the work that the other leagues are doing," Bettman told The Victory Press on Friday.

He continued, "We can be supportive to an extent but at some point in time, if it makes sense and all the leagues think it makes sense, then maybe we'll start something up on our own." Twice in his remarks, Bettman separated a hypothetical NHL-run women's hockey league from the two existing North American leagues.

[transplant99]

Why doesnt the NHL just say "we are starting our own womens league and those players who wish to play for us can come along and best of luck to those who dont"?

I mean the CWHL is no longer there as a "competing" league and the NWHL would pack it in quicker than the Flames in round 1.

Seems like a really easy solution to things rather than leaving the existing league in an internal power struggle while knowing they have a massive resistence from their players....no?

[soulchoice]

If the reason the ladies are striking is to get their current owners to step up then I do wish them the best. However in the grand scheme of it all, it’s simple supply and demand. If you don’t bring in the revenue, you won’t get a raise.

Lots of leagues fail, sports leagues. Look no further than down south with the AFF football. In life, nothing is deserved. You make decisions based on the probability of good things. For example, if someone was to go to school and get a degree for a career with little to no possibility for employment to go along with a non livable salary even if employed. It’s best not to choose that career path.

I had a friend who wanted to make the Olympics in a sport with little or no financial reward. Then he complains after about how tough it is to live with the income deficiency. Soon enough he realized he had to make a tough choice, be an adult and do something else to make ends meet, no matter how big his dream was to win a gold medal. Life is about choices and what you are willing to sacrifice to do what you love, in this case financial sacrifice.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

If the reason the ladies are striking is to get their current owners to step up then I do wish them the best. However in the grand scheme of it all, it’s simple supply and demand. If you don’t bring in the revenue, you won’t get a raise.

Lots of leagues fail, sports leagues. Look no further than down south with the AFF football. In life, nothing is deserved. You make decisions based on the probability of good things. For example, if someone was to go to school and get a degree for a career with little to no possibility for employment to go along with a non livable salary even if employed. It’s best not to choose that career path.

I had a friend who wanted to make the Olympics in a sport with little or no financial reward. Then he complains after about how tough it is to live with the income deficiency. Soon enough he realized he had to make a tough choice, be an adult and do something else to make ends meet, no matter how big his dream was to win a gold medal. Life is about choices and what you are willing to sacrifice to do what you love, in this case financial sacrifice.

Not to sound crass but I do think there is a sense of entitlement too along the lines of "If men can make a living doing this we should be able to". I fully support them making a living doing this... As long as there are people willing to pay to watch. I know the WNBA is subsidized by the NBA but they still average 7,716 in attendance.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

This is the rub...the league needs to provide the business plan and strategy and then actually execute. All the ladies I know would do anything asked of to promote the game. No doubt an initial backer with some cash will have to be found and the business plan has to make sense.

Agreed they will never, ever be a draw like the men but there is an untapped market sitting right around Calgary and area. 140+ players and growing just in Cochrane (15% of registration) and we are still, by a large margin, the smallest in the area...and they have to bring their families, they can't drive.

I know the Inferno tried but all of their positions in management were volunteer...only so much time in the day, only so much pavement they could pound. Any female teams will have to seriously tap into their local female committees for help to promote.

Do the ladies you're talking to, ask to draw fund's from the men/NHL, to help finance the league?

[oldschoolcalgary]

as of end of august 2018, the average league attendance to WNBA games was 6,731: the trend line has been pointing down since the league's inception

“On average (we’ve lost) over $10 million every year we’ve operated,” NBA Commissioner Adam Silver told the AP in a phone interview in October.

the CWHL was 617... and that's with Montreal propping up the 3 other teams with their attendance of 1567, with calgary second at 480, Toronto 358 and Worcester with only 83.

the NHL is a business like any other business... investing in it would have to mean some quantifiable returns...

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Do the ladies you're talking to, ask to draw fund's from the men/NHL, to help finance the league?

No, like I said, I'm sure they would love that but the closest I have heard anyone come to that is more like it would be great it the NHL helped them with promotion and recognition.

The leagues themselves are doing/did a pretty bad job at that but it was probably due to cash flow.