UPDATE: NHLPA votes for further negotiations on 24-team return to play format

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

So you don't give a #### that people died, lots of people got really, really sick, (many of whom will have lifelong issues - ie renal failure/dialysis dependent)... because you lost you job. You know what, that is a ridiculously selfish perspective for anyone to have.

And a three month halt to the economy was needed (and in large part was happening regardless due to decreased international commerce), because no one knew what to expect. We needed time to prepare for what was to come, to stockpile reserves, to actually make sure that we didn't become the next international hot spot, so we could put strategic plans into effect. So that we could do our best to make sure that vulnerable populations were not going to become mass casualties. Sorry you lost you job, I am sure that it is tough... but pull your self centered head out of your ass you gigantic man baby.

[direwolf]

Clicked on this thread to hopefully get some hockey news, only to see that it's completely gone off the rails, lol.


Oh well. Carry on, gents..

[Freeway]

So Phase 2 begins Monday, eh?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Nm

[Locke]

I think we really, really, really need hockey back.

This has been like a normal off-season on steroids and then contracting Covid.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

All I know is I'm 37 and I have to start over, until the next big thing happens of course. So what's the point of even trying? My whole adult life working towards a future that doesn't exist now because of a virus that has a 0.2% death rate according to the CDC.

Its going to be the literal end of the world if an actual superbug emerges. And it's probably only a matter of time. If this is how we respond to coronavirus, we probably nuke a real superbug from orbit.

It's a lot more than 0.2%, 7m cases and 400k deaths is about 2.8% death rate and that's with the BS numbers out of China and Russia

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

It's a lot more than 0.2%, 7m cases and 400k deaths is about 2.8% death rate and that's with the BS numbers out of China and Russia

That's the number from the tested I think. I'm pretty sure the CDC estimated 0.2%. I could check again. I think it's because so many get it, don't show symptoms and thus don't get tested. The numbers of infected would probably explode if everyone everywhere got tested right now.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think .2 is the overall mortality rate across an entire population.
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...us-death-rate/

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Sounds really difficult to gauge. They seem to be projecting because so many show no symptoms. Probably won't know the full extent truly for a good while.

The following quote stuck with me

"So far there has been 1 death every 1,166 people under 65 years old (compared to 1 death every 358 people in the general population). And 89% of the times, the person who died had one or more underlying medical conditions."

I realize those numbers go up as more people get it but they just don't seem to justify the reaction. I know it's hindsight but I just assumed that the scientists and medical community wouldn't push for these measures unless they absolutely had to. I don't know, sorry if i came across and cold and uncaring that is not the case. I feel horrible for anyone who died of this or any other sickness, I just think there was some over reaction. We can't destroy the economy the next time a virus like this pops up, we just can't. I'm not some money grubber but many lives have been ruined here, lives that may never recover. Jobs are gone that aren't coming back and small businesses are dying.

Maybe they slowed it down a bit and eased the burden on the medical system but I feel like they used a hammer when more delicate tools were required. I don't know, I don't trust the government to handle basic things so I doubt them here. Think about it, if the virus killed 1/10 of the people it does, they don't shut everything down. There is a certain threshold that triggers a reaction like that. If it kills 40,000 instead of 400,000 there is no way are they doing what they are doing. What is the threshold? Where is the line drawn regarding saving thousands of human lives vs destroying the lives of millions? It's an interesting philosophical question at the very least.

We wouldn't stab ourselves in the stomach to kill a mosquito but that's kind of what we did. I read an article that said it will take a decade to recover unless something else pops up which it almost assuredly will. Whether its a another virus, natural disasters, oil crashing, wars, the stock market crashing, civil right riots, fascist ideals taking root in the Western world or a million other things, it's just one thing after the other. It's must see tv for kodos and kang but I'm sick of it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Again though just look at countries that didn’t implement steps and you can see it would have been much worse. And in many cases those countries still suffered the economic downsides.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Sounds really difficult to gauge. They seem to be projecting because so many show no symptoms. Probably won't know the full extent truly for a good while.

The following quote stuck with me

"So far there has been 1 death every 1,166 people under 65 years old (compared to 1 death every 358 people in the general population). And 89% of the times, the person who died had one or more underlying medical conditions."

I realize those numbers go up as more people get it but they just don't seem to justify the reaction. I know it's hindsight but I just assumed that the scientists and medical community wouldn't push for these measures unless they absolutely had to. I don't know, sorry if i came across and cold and uncaring that is not the case. I feel horrible for anyone who died of this or any other sickness, I just think there was some over reaction. We can't destroy the economy the next time a virus like this pops up, we just can't. I'm not some money grubber but many lives have been ruined here, lives that may never recover. Jobs are gone that aren't coming back and small businesses are dying.

Maybe they slowed it down a bit and eased the burden on the medical system but I feel like they used a hammer when more delicate tools were required. I don't know, I don't trust the government to handle basic things so I doubt them here. Think about it, if the virus killed 1/10 of the people it does, they don't shut everything down. There is a certain threshold that triggers a reaction like that. If it kills 40,000 instead of 400,000 there is no way are they doing what they are doing. What is the threshold? Where is the line drawn regarding saving thousands of human lives vs destroying the lives of millions? It's an interesting philosophical question at the very least.

We wouldn't stab ourselves in the stomach to kill a mosquito but that's kind of what we did. I read an article that said it will take a decade to recover unless something else pops up which it almost assuredly will. Whether its a another virus, natural disasters, oil crashing, wars, the stock market crashing, civil right riots, fascist ideals taking root in the Western world or a million other things, it's just one thing after the other. It's must see tv for kodos and kang but I'm sick of it.

But you're making the cardinal mistake that so many have made in attributing the numbers WITH the shutdowns and measures to what we would have had WITHOUT shutdowns and measures. It's so common with those that feel there should have been no measures.

The likely outcome in a place like Alberta with business as usual would have been closer to Italy than Iceland and we'd be lamenting high hundreds, likely thousands dead.

[jayswin]

The same goes with the flu comparisons. It's like people suddenly forget that Covid numbers include destruction of the global economy and stopping of so many work and entertainment routines....worldwide.

Then they go "here's the death rate compared to the flu, why are we doing all this again?!". Ummm, think about that - If we put the effort into stopping the flu that we did to stopping covid then the flu would have like a few hundred deaths worldwide. The 400k deaths from covid (and counting, likley 100k more coming from the US) are from what we're doing to stop the spread, NOT what they would be if we did nothing. Very simple, but often missed for some reason.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by jayswin

But you're making the cardinal mistake that so many have made in attributing the numbers WITH the shutdowns and measures to what we would have had WITHOUT shutdowns and measures. It's so common with those that feel there should have been no measures.

The likely outcome in a place like Alberta with business as usual would have been closer to Italy than Iceland and we'd be lamenting high hundreds, likely thousands dead.

Well there is no way to check in on the alternate universe to know for sure so it is hard to say. I never said NO measures, I specifically said I thought they used a hammer, that's all

EDIT: sorry misread that second part

[djsFlames]

What are we potentially looking at for the rough timing of things moving forward do we think, because I'm certain the owners of the teams that didn't qualify for the 24 team tournament will want to see their team play in this calendar year.

mid-July to end of September for the current season's conclusion

Free Agency in October/November

A virtual draft sprinkled in there somewhere

Training camps and first games of 20-21 in December?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Well there is no way to check in on the alternate universe to know for sure so it is hard to say. I never said NO measures, I specifically said I thought they used a hammer, that's all

EDIT: sorry misread that second part

It's not really alternate universe stuff though. No, we don't know exactly how things would have gone, but the whole world was going through this at relatively the same time (as China BS'd their stats so we couldn't rely on them) and we had very good modelling on how things would likely go based on measures taken.

I mean please tell me you at least saw what happened in countries that were ill-prepared, like Italy and Spain? Fuzz mentioned that it's a fine line. You shut everything down for a few weeks and even then a couple non-compliant areas can invoke chaos and mass death, while a hair the other way and everything works out okay.

[jayswin]

We did well in Alberta because we did well, not because we didn't need to do anything.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

What are we potentially looking at for the rough timing of things moving forward do we think, because I'm certain the owners of the teams that didn't qualify for the 24 team tournament will want to see their team play in this calendar year.

Any reasoning for that? I bet most owners are happier to find the timeline that gets them the most possible games with [some] ticket sales. All teams have already played over 2 months in this calendar year; I'm sure most teams run a fiscal year starting and ending in the summer...

Just not sure what the difference between Dec. or Jan. would be?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by jayswin

It's not really alternate universe stuff though. No, we don't know exactly how things would have gone, but the whole world was going through this at relatively the same time (as China BS'd their stats so we couldn't rely on them) and we had very good modelling on how things would likely go based on measures taken.

I mean please tell me you at least saw what happened in countries that were ill-prepared, like Italy and Spain? Fuzz mentioned that it's a fine line. You shut everything down for a few weeks and even then a couple non-compliant areas can invoke chaos and mass death, while a hair the other way and everything works out okay.

But now it's okay to open everything back up? We good now? Just needed 3 months of shutdown now virus is defeated?

What's the end game here because I envision them shutting everything down again if it flares up even a little. Just start and stop the economy for 12 months? Is that the plan?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Well there is no way to check in on the alternate universe to know for sure so it is hard to say. I never said NO measures, I specifically said I thought they used a hammer, that's all

And if you agree that it would've been business as usual, doesn't that mean it was an overreaction?

You don't have to look at an alternate universe. There are plenty of examples right here.

Sweden is likely the best case scenario for a "business as usual" approach. They have a relatively low population, with relatively low density, and a large percentage of their population lives alone, making it easier for them to isolate. Their population was considered generally compliant with the relaxed and voluntary restrictions (likely more than we would see in North America with a lot of people's "you can't tell me what to do" attitudes).

Sweden now has one of the highest death rates from COVID-19 in the world. Their officials have recently stated that they now believe their approach was a mistake.


On top of that, they still took the same economic hit that their neighbouring countries took, who did a harder lockdown.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

But now it's okay to open everything back up? We good now? Just needed 3 months of shutdown now virus is defeated?

What's the end game here because I envision them shutting everything down again if it flares up even a little. Just start and stop the economy for 12 months? Is that the plan?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I don't mean any offence and I truly do hate seeing people personally affected by job loss in this, but have you followed the news on this virus at all?

I would recommend doing some reading on what worked and didn't work in various countries and how the "flattening the curve" strategy came to be widely accepted and implemented and likely saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

The initial shutdown was all about flattening the curve, but you can't just flatten the curve indefinitely so once hospitals are not overwhelmed you then have to start opening up the economy with readiness to pull back a bit if the curve needs flattening again.

This was an incredible fluid and complex situation that wasn't handled perfectly, but much of what you lament actually was handled well according to science. We needed some level of shutdown or the whole world would be Italy and we'd be looking at deaths possibly in the tens of millions. Did Alberta overdo it a bit? Now it looks like it, yes, but not by much as we were on the same razor as everyone else where as smidgen over would have seen way more death.