The Matthew Tkachuk contract negotiations

[kukkudo]

If a team offers him 10M plus he is signing it. There is no loyalty in this business.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You said he will only sign an offer sheet that he is sure the Flames will match. How is that logical?

It is perfectly logical if he is primarily motivated for now to sign an extension to play hockey in Calgary, and has no interest in playing elsewhere. Maybe that changes, but based on all reports so far it seems that Tkachuk is for now only negotiating with the Flames, and also appears only interested in re-signing with Calgary.

Faced with two offer sheets, one for $8 million x 5 years, one for $9 million x 5 years. And he believes Flames will match the former and not the latter.

Please support your argument that he will only sign the first offer sheet.

It's a hunch, of course, but I don't see why it should be considered even controversial that Tkachuk would carefully factor into consideration his playing destination for the next multiple years when signing an extension. Will Tkachuk sign just the highest offer from any team? What if he has absolutely no interest in playing for that team?

If, say, Buffalo is the team offering $45 m, and Nashville is offering $40 m, maybe Tkachuk declines the higher offer and signs the lower one because he would rather not risk the chance of playing for a team he does not want to play for. Is it really that unbelievable to imagine that this could happen? (Please note that these are hypothetical examples to illustrate my point; I have no idea how he would feel about one team over another.)

I actually think the Sebastian Aho contract provides some pretty good conjectural evidence that a player would use an offer sheet from another team to get the deal he wants from his rights-holding team. It seems like a pretty good bet that if the entire rest of the hockey world knew Carolina would match the offer, Aho and his agent were equally aware of this. I think it is entirely plausible that a player (maybe a player like Tkachuk) is having a difficult time coming to terms with his rights-holding team that he REALLY wants to play for, but then receives an offer from another team covering what he wants while also being confident it is an offer his rights-holding team will match.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You seem to know for a fact that he won’t.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I haven’t said anything one way or another. You seem to be stating something as fact.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

If Playoffs count , and they really do, Timo Meier would universally ranked ahead of Tkachuk.

4x6 should be the absolute top end.


A UFA (absolutely no rules built into cost control) Evander Kane got 7x7

The absolute top limit for Tkachuk (Brad Marchand) has just completed year 2 of his UFA contract 6.125 x 8. He was a UFA when he signed that.

While literally none of this is at all valuable in regards to negotiating with Tkachuk considering the Marchand/Kane situations are 1000% different, Meier's contract was structured in such a way that it's essentially a 5-year/$34M contract at minimum considering the Sharks will need to qualify him at $10M when his contract is up.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

You know this for a fact do you?

At this point in his career, Tkachuk is worth nowhere near 10 mil a season, so common sense dictates he would sign an offer sheet in a heartbeat.

Not like he grew up a Flames fan.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

At this point in his career, Tkachuk is worth nowhere near 10 mil a season, so common sense dictates he would sign an offer sheet in a heartbeat.

Not like he grew up a Flames fan.

This makes sense to me. It’s encouraging that he wants to stay, but I’m under no illusion that he’ll stay here for much less than he can get elsewhere

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It is perfectly logical if he is primarily motivated for now to sign an extension to play hockey in Calgary, and has no interest in playing elsewhere. Maybe that changes, but based on all reports so far it seems that Tkachuk is for now only negotiating with the Flames, and also appears only interested in re-signing with Calgary.


It's a hunch, of course, but I don't see why it should be considered even controversial that Tkachuk would carefully factor into consideration his playing destination for the next multiple years when signing an extension. Will Tkachuk sign just the highest offer from any team? What if he has absolutely no interest in playing for that team?

If, say, Buffalo is the team offering $45 m, and Nashville is offering $40 m, maybe Tkachuk declines the higher offer and signs the lower one because he would rather not risk the chance of playing for a team he does not want to play for. Is it really that unbelievable to imagine that this could happen? (Please note that these are hypothetical examples to illustrate my point; I have no idea how he would feel about one team over another.)

I actually think the Sebastian Aho contract provides some pretty good conjectural evidence that a player would use an offer sheet from another team to get the deal he wants from his rights-holding team. It seems like a pretty good bet that if the entire rest of the hockey world knew Carolina would match the offer, Aho and his agent were equally aware of this. I think it is entirely plausible that a player (maybe a player like Tkachuk) is having a difficult time coming to terms with his rights-holding team that he REALLY wants to play for, but then receives an offer from another team covering what he wants while also being confident it is an offer his rights-holding team will match.

You’re backtracking. Your initial statement that he would only sign an offer sheet that the Flames would match. In your example, Aho turns down a $10.5 million dollar offer from Montreal.

[greentree]

6 x $7,750,000 is my guess

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You’re backtracking. Your initial statement that he would only sign an offer sheet that the Flames would match. In your example, Aho turns down a $10.5 million dollar offer from Montreal.

And we’ll never know if that was true or not, since he was not offered a 10.5 million dollar contract.

Just look at reports around the Braydon Point situation. Montreal wanted to give him an offer sheet, and he passed because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite the fact that Montreal can obviously offer more than Tampa can right now.

Why is this hard to understand? Some RFA players like the team they’re on, and want to stay on that team, and will decline offer sheets that likely trigger their departure from that team.

This is not a new or unique thing. It’s significantly more common than player’s actually signing offer sheets.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And we’ll never know if that was true or not, since he was not offered a 10.5 million dollar contract.

Just look at reports around the Braydon Point situation. Montreal wanted to give him an offer sheet, and he passed because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite the fact that Montreal can obviously offer more than Tampa can right now.

Why is this hard to understand? Some RFA players like the team they’re on, and want to stay on that team, and will decline offer sheets that likely trigger their departure from that team.

This is not a new or unique thing. It’s significantly more common than player’s actually signing offer sheets.

How can you say this definitively without even knowing how much Montreal offered Point and without taking into consideration the tax implications between Montreal and Tampa Bay? You have zero idea as to why Point didn't sign the offer sheet.

You criticize a poster for making a judgement without knowing all the facts, then you literally do the same thing.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And we’ll never know if that was true or not, since he was not offered a 10.5 million dollar contract.

Just look at reports around the Braydon Point situation. Montreal wanted to give him an offer sheet, and he passed because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite the fact that Montreal can obviously offer more than Tampa can right now.

Why is this hard to understand? Some RFA players like the team they’re on, and want to stay on that team, and will decline offer sheets that likely trigger their departure from that team.

This is not a new or unique thing. It’s significantly more common than player’s actually signing offer sheets.

Go back and read what TC wrote. Of course players prefer certain teams. Why do you want to debate that point? I have no idea what Tkachuk is thinking but it is possible he is willing to give the Flames a massive discount because he likes it in Calgary so much. I personally believe that’s unlikely but that is not the point up for debate.

His assertion is some fantasy scenario where Tkachuk is negotiating an offer sheet but would not go so far as to sign one that the Flames would not be able to match. Which would essentially require negotiating against your self with another team.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

How can you say this definitively without even knowing how much Montreal offered Point and without taking into consideration the tax implications between Montreal and Tampa Bay? You have zero idea as to why Point didn't sign the offer sheet.

You criticize a poster for making a judgement without knowing all the facts, then you literally do the same thing.

Yep would be very curious to know who these players are that have turned down offer sheets beyond what their team is able to pay. And how they have come to know what their teams are willing to pay?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Go back and read what TC wrote. Of course players prefer certain teams. Why do you want to debate that point? I have no idea what Tkachuk is thinking but it is possible he is willing to give the Flames a massive discount because he likes it in Calgary so much. I personally believe that’s unlikely but that is not the point up for debate.

His assertion is some fantasy scenario where Tkachuk is negotiating an offer sheet but would not go so far as to sign one that the Flames would not be able to match. Which would essentially require negotiating against your self with another team.

No, you made that up that fantasy scenario.

The scenario suggested is that if an offer sheet came along that was in line with what Tkachuk would/could reasonably get from the Flames, he would sign it. If it was unlikely the Flames would match it, he wouldn’t.

Where’s this fantasy negotiation scenario? There’s no “negotiating against himself” in that scenario. It’s no different than Point declining to sign a sheet with Montreal because he wants to stay in Tampa. Do you think he’s negotiating against himself?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, you made that up that fantasy scenario.

The scenario suggested is that if an offer sheet came along that was in line with what Tkachuk would/could reasonably get from the Flames, he would sign it. If it was unlikely the Flames would match it, he wouldn’t.

Where’s this fantasy negotiation scenario? There’s no “negotiating against himself” in that scenario. It’s no different than Point declining to sign a sheet with Montreal because he wants to stay in Tampa. Do you think he’s negotiating against himself?

Again, how do you know why Point declined the reported offered sheet from Montreal, without even knowing what the amount Montreal offered was?

For all you know, hypothetically Point didn't sign the offer because it was long term and he knew Tampa would match and Point doesn't want to be in Tampa long term. See?

You have no clue as to why Point turned the offer down, so maybe try and get your point across with something you actually know?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

How can you say this definitively without even knowing how much Montreal offered Point and without taking into consideration the tax implications between Montreal and Tampa Bay? You have zero idea as to why Point didn't sign the offer sheet.

You criticize a poster for making a judgement without knowing all the facts, then you literally do the same thing.

What are you talking about?

The facts are:
- Montreal wanted to offer sheet Point
- Point declines because he wants to stay in Tampa
- Montreal has significantly more space to pay Point than Tampa

I don’t know what Montreal offered and don’t know how much Point cares about the tax implications. But we do know that they made an offer, and Point declined because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite not currently having a contract in Tampa, and that Montreal was willing to offer 8.4 million to their second choice for an offer sheet (Aho).

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What are you talking about?

The facts are:
- Montreal wanted to offer sheet Point
- Point declines because he wants to stay in Tampa
- Montreal has significantly more space to pay Point than Tampa

I don’t know what Montreal offered and don’t know how much Point cares about the tax implications. But we do know that they made an offer, and Point declined because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite not currently having a contract in Tampa, and that Montreal was willing to offer 8.4 million to their second choice for an offer sheet (Aho).

This is what I'm talking about. You have no clue why he declined. Zero clue. You don't even know what the offer was.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Again, how do you know why Point declined the reported offered sheet from Montreal, without even knowing what the amount Montreal offered was?

For all you know, hypothetically Point didn't sign the offer because it was long term and he knew Tampa would match and Point doesn't want to be in Tampa long term. See?

You have no clue as to why Point turned the offer down, so maybe try and get your point across with something you actually know?

Friedman reported it was because he wanted to stay in Tampa.

Which is about as good a source as we can count on to know anything in a negotiation.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, you made that up that fantasy scenario.

The scenario suggested is that if an offer sheet came along that was in line with what Tkachuk would/could reasonably get from the Flames, he would sign it. If it was unlikely the Flames would match it, he wouldn’t.

Where’s this fantasy negotiation scenario? There’s no “negotiating against himself” in that scenario. It’s no different than Point declining to sign a sheet with Montreal because he wants to stay in Tampa. Do you think he’s negotiating against himself?

Nope. The statement was that Tkachuk would only sign an offer sheet that Calgary would match, and decline one that they could not.

So number one, would require him to know what Flames will and won’t match. How does he know that?

Number two, offer sheets don’t come in the mail. They are a contract negotiation. So again would require him to negotiate against himself with a team that was willing to seriously push Calgary’s ability to sign. So for example he starts negotiating with Rangers, tells them his asking price, they exceed it by $2 million and he turns it down.

Number three, requires the belief that Tkachuk values the Flames ability to manage their cap situation more than his financial security. Always possible, and without knowing the guy I can’t speak to his priorities.

Of course he might decline to negotiate with other teams because he is happy with how the Flames negotiations are going which is hopefully the likely scenario. That is not the point up for debate.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Friedman reported it was because he wanted to stay in Tampa.

Which is about as good a source as we can count on to know anything in a negotiation.

Yeah, maybe we should wait and see what term and dollar Point signs for before using him as an example to prove a point of team loyalty?

Generally, Facts are important when trying to prove an argument. Speculation, not so much.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What are you talking about?

The facts are:
- Montreal wanted to offer sheet Point
- Point declines because he wants to stay in Tampa
- Montreal has significantly more space to pay Point than Tampa

I don’t know what Montreal offered and don’t know how much Point cares about the tax implications. But we do know that they made an offer, and Point declined because he wants to stay in Tampa, despite not currently having a contract in Tampa, and that Montreal was willing to offer 8.4 million to their second choice for an offer sheet (Aho).

In TC’s example Point negotiates the offer sheet with Montreal but because he magically knows how far Tampa will go, he doesn’t let Montreal exceed that limit.