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Old 03-29-2022, 08:41 PM   #1
Igotnothing
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I recently picked up a set of Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro's (250 ohms). Primarily I intend to use them for gaming on my pc. Currently all I have is motherboard sound but I plan on changing that. Which brings me to my question, what do I change it too?

I've been debating between a sound card and a usb DAC/AMP. The front runners are the old school creative sound card and the creative X3 external DAC. The sound card is about $60 cheaper and if I really want to take my headphones with me i do have a little amp that has enough juice to power the headphones.

Does any one have any suggestions for alternate soundcards or external DAC/AMPs?

Thanks
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Old 03-29-2022, 08:51 PM   #2
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If I were in the market for a desktop headphone amp, my choice would immediately be JDS Labs

https://jdslabs.com/product/atom-amp/

Their amp and dac engineering is superb.
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Old 03-29-2022, 10:09 PM   #3
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I have the X3 though I'm driving a Sennheiser PC38X which is nice but not high impedance so can't really comment on its ability to drive those, and they're open backed.

My overall impression is it is fine, sounds good to me. Has a lot of fancy stuff to change how things sound, add 3D etc, but I turn most of that off. I'm not an extreme user though and my ears aren't as good as they used to be so can't comment on the quality as much.

My biggest complaint is the same as it's always been for Creative.. their software is meh. It crashes on me quite often. Just as I went to look at it when posting this it crashed.. though now it wants to update and it says one of the fixes is fixing a crash lol.

I kinda wish I'd gone with a Sennheiser GSX 1000 or 300, though I've heard of their software being buggy too.

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Old 03-29-2022, 10:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igotnothing View Post
I recently picked up a set of Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro's (250 ohms). Primarily I intend to use them for gaming on my pc. Currently all I have is motherboard sound but I plan on changing that. Which brings me to my question, what do I change it too?

I've been debating between a sound card and a usb DAC/AMP. The front runners are the old school creative sound card and the creative X3 external DAC. The sound card is about $60 cheaper and if I really want to take my headphones with me i do have a little amp that has enough juice to power the headphones.

Does any one have any suggestions for alternate soundcards or external DAC/AMPs?

Thanks
What portable amp do you have? It might be able to connect to the PC via USB.

My brother used to use Creative DAC/AMPs but they don't seem to last long before crapping out.

There are many great brands, including JDS Labs. My favourite lately is the Fiio BTR5 that will work as a desktop or portable (even Bluetooth) amp. You can find the on sale for about $150.
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Old 03-30-2022, 07:57 AM   #5
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Yeah FIIO and JDS are both great. I have the Fiio K5 Pro.. lots of power to spare even for your 250 ohm cans. Haven't tried the BTR5 but that would give you some portable options
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:08 AM   #6
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I used to use the Fiio X3 MK1 DAP for my DT7700 pro. I could connect to a computer via USB and then I could use it to play music on the go. The original interface was kinda meh, but the custom firmware kinda helped with that.

I bought it years ago and I am not sure of your usage as to whether you are better off with a dedicated DAC/AMP or if a DAP like the X1/X3/X5/X7 or M11 would work well with your DT990.

The only downside with the FIIO is that the battery life of 10-12 hours is kinda meh vs mp3 players of yore such as the Sandisk Clip zip and Cowon players that could go upwards of 20-30 hours, but I believe most of the FIIO have an amp built in, which probably explains why it has less battery life.
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Old 03-30-2022, 08:20 PM   #7
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The little amp I have is this one: https://us.creative.com/p/archived-p...und-blaster-e1

I really like the look of those JDS amps and dacs but both, even the Atom's add up real quick. I only plan to sit at the PC with it and play them video games. Long term, I'd like to get those Atom's, I think anymore more will be wasted on my old ears, and if I want to take these headphones on the road the little creative labs I have and linked above is more than enough. Short term, I'll either keep using motherboard sound or spend $120 on a soundblaster sound card. Thanks for the inputs guys, it's definitely helped me make a decision and pointed me towards stuff I hadn't seen.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:06 PM   #8
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The little amp I have is this one: https://us.creative.com/p/archived-p...und-blaster-e1

I really like the look of those JDS amps and dacs but both, even the Atom's add up real quick. I only plan to sit at the PC with it and play them video games. Long term, I'd like to get those Atom's, I think anymore more will be wasted on my old ears, and if I want to take these headphones on the road the little creative labs I have and linked above is more than enough. Short term, I'll either keep using motherboard sound or spend $120 on a soundblaster sound card. Thanks for the inputs guys, it's definitely helped me make a decision and pointed me towards stuff I hadn't seen.
If I might toss out another suggestion:

https://www.schiit.com/products/fulla-2

Maybe slightly over your budget but worth considerstion
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:09 PM   #9
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I was looking at those Schiit's , I'll have to take another look. I do like the JDS's though so i'm leaning heavy that way. Lots of time to decide.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:15 PM   #10
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I was looking at those Schiit's , I'll have to take another look. I do like the JDS's though so i'm leaning heavy that way. Lots of time to decide.
I'd personally go for the JDS aa well but I was just tossing out something that might fit your profile. Since it's a pretty feature-rich DAC-AMP combo for about 135 cdn (+shipping/duties) the Fulla E might be an alternative to the Creative.

Overall I wouldn't lose too much sleeps on DACs and AMPs though. It's nice to have those silent noise floors and max dynamic range, but overall most transducers are the primary source of signal colouration. Are you using your DT990s with a convolution to something like the Harman curve?
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Old 03-30-2022, 10:41 PM   #11
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The little amp I have is this one: https://us.creative.com/p/archived-p...und-blaster-e1

I really like the look of those JDS amps and dacs but both, even the Atom's add up real quick. I only plan to sit at the PC with it and play them video games. Long term, I'd like to get those Atom's, I think anymore more will be wasted on my old ears, and if I want to take these headphones on the road the little creative labs I have and linked above is more than enough. Short term, I'll either keep using motherboard sound or spend $120 on a soundblaster sound card. Thanks for the inputs guys, it's definitely helped me make a decision and pointed me towards stuff I hadn't seen.
I wouldn't go the soundcard route for the headphone you have. 250 ohms need some power. That's why something like the k5 pro (dac and amp all in one) or another dac/amp solution like jds would be better.

You bought good headphones, but they're high impedence. Gotta power them

I'd either trade the headphone you have for something easier to drive or get something substantial like k5 pro, ifi zen can, or jds/schitt dac/amp combo

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Old 03-31-2022, 09:52 PM   #12
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I'd personally go for the JDS aa well but I was just tossing out something that might fit your profile. Since it's a pretty feature-rich DAC-AMP combo for about 135 cdn (+shipping/duties) the Fulla E might be an alternative to the Creative.

Overall I wouldn't lose too much sleeps on DACs and AMPs though. It's nice to have those silent noise floors and max dynamic range, but overall most transducers are the primary source of signal colouration. Are you using your DT990s with a convolution to something like the Harman curve?
I understood most of that, the last two sentences mean sweet FA to me though. That's an interesting point regarding the Fulla vs the creative labs. I'm lacking in knowledge about fully how DACs and amps work vs sound cards. My mind still goes to the old days whne onboard sound was terrible and you needed a creative labs card to get good audio. That doesn't seem to be the case any more? Getting one of the Fulla's will cover those bases?

Calumniate - regarding the power needed to for the DT990's, the creative labs card i was looking at: https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX00117341
Seems to have the amp built enough that's strong enough to power my headphones. I'm pretty new to this though and maybe I misinterpreted the numbers? Similarly, the little amp/dac I have also says it can power headphones up to 600 ohms, mine are only 250. Am I not understanding correctly?
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Old 03-31-2022, 10:18 PM   #13
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I understood most of that, the last two sentences mean sweet FA to me though. That's an interesting point regarding the Fulla vs the creative labs. I'm lacking in knowledge about fully how DACs and amps work vs sound cards. My mind still goes to the old days whne onboard sound was terrible and you needed a creative labs card to get good audio. That doesn't seem to be the case any more? Getting one of the Fulla's will cover those bases?

Calumniate - regarding the power needed to for the DT990's, the creative labs card i was looking at: https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX00117341
Seems to have the amp built enough that's strong enough to power my headphones. I'm pretty new to this though and maybe I misinterpreted the numbers? Similarly, the little amp/dac I have also says it can power headphones up to 600 ohms, mine are only 250. Am I not understanding correctly?
I am not totally sure if this is what he was saying, but I wonder if it might be a preamp vs power amp situation.


Badly explained, preamp helps shape/maintain the characteristics of the signal and sound vs a power amp is more volume. If I'm not mistaken, most of the suggestions are more pre amp than power amp. I believe the creative thing you posted is a portable amp? Which is basically a power amp.


When on the go, I used to use a Fiio E06 portable amp to boost volume. There was also a EQ feature to it that perhaps played with the sound kinda like a pseudo preamp function. It could drive up to 600 ohms too but it was only like $40.


The JDS might not work on the go, but probably would be superior to the creative with your computer. The ability to hook up speakers as well as headphones is pretty sweet functions wise. I don't think it's portable though.


It's might not be a bad idea to split the two concepts vs combining them. Get the right one for your computer gaming, and get a separate cheaper portable amp or a DAP with a built in amp for on the go?
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Old 03-31-2022, 10:44 PM   #14
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Maybe I overstated things a little. You're right 250 ohm isn't as high as 600 ohm. That card should be fine, but maybe only a sidegrade to what you have on your motherboard.
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Old 03-31-2022, 11:14 PM   #15
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reading your post again, I'm wondering if there's some terminology confusion. I think we are all on sorta the same page but totally different places of that page. It also doesn't help there are units that blend different combos of DAC, pre amp, power amp and player together. I still get these terminology mixed up, so I'll try my best.

DAC is digital to analog converter. It's more heavily favored as a unit for RCA and Coaxial out. I think a DAC is more useful for speakers even if it had components for headphones.


If I'm not mistaken, Preamp is what you want to get the sound profile you want.


Power amp is if your headphones are too quiet when plugged in and / or you have to crank the volume up so high that there's too much distortion and noise.


GuaranteedEV is talking about units that would be a great fixture to your computer to get good sound profile and have output to headphones and speakers. It'll do sound at the computer great, but no portable.


What you linked I think is more like a higher end portable amp (power with some preamp features). It'll get the volume you want, but the preamp features in it wouldn't be as good when at a computer as those found in the DAC/Amp combos. I think that's what caluminate was alluding to. It'll do portable and at computer, but inferior to the dedicated DAC/Amp combos at the computer.


Myself and others, I was suggesting a DAC/DAP w/ built in portable amp combo with the Fiio players. It's kinda like what you linked, but with the added ability to play music (digital analog player DAP). But as far as I can tell... It doesn't really seem like the DAC function is as important to you as long as the amp has a 3.5mm jack.




Because your OP said you're primarily gaming and a computer should have too many issues with power, then I think guaranteedEV and caluminate are right that those other DAC/Amp combos are better for your needs for gaming than the creative portable amp you have.


The portable amp you have is good to connect to an mp3 player so that you aren't cranking a player to 80-90% just to hear the music at an acceptable level. You can pair it to drop the player down to 30-40% volume instead.


That being said, I find portable amps are kinda pointless because power output on most things with 3.5mm Jacks are pretty decent now. Additionally there's significantly less distortion and crackling than things with 3.5mm Jacks 10-15 years ago. This is especially true of most phones. You only really need portable for volume for some minor sounds / balance.


For portability, a player with power amps built in like the Fiio music players is IMO the best combo for me with less bulk. Even though the creative external sound card is pretty small, it's still bulk IMO. That's the same reason I abandoned my Fiio E06. Everything I had that played music had enough volume and EQ options and I was fine with sacrificing quality for portability when on the go. When I game or watch movie, I sacrifice portability for quality sound by using a mixamp. (Preamp/power amp/other features like audio in/out). Mixamp can help so you don't sound like muffled ear cancer and your voice is clear in games.



The more I think about it, for gaming maybe a mixamp or a DAC/Amp combo or if we use buzzwords, a gaming amp is what you need.

ASTRO Gaming MixAmp Pro TR with Dolby Audio for Xbox One, PC & Mac - MixAmp Pro TR Edition https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07NSNDHK2/...RJRA1F2ZP4ZVC9

Sennheiser GSX 1200 Pro Gaming Audio Amplifier https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01LDTP46G/...Y1QMVG1VV7R9ZD

Confusingly mixing/gaming amps are sometimes more pre amp and not enough power amp. But I love being able to toggle certain audio presets and surround sound presents in my ASTRO A40. You might have to play around with the combos. But if you're doing this, you're basically also smack dab debating the JDS and Schitt DAC/amps for cheaper but less EQ presets. It's kinda confusing because it depends on what you want and need.

For portability and on the go... You could continue using your creative card.

Thanks to this thread... I ended up down a rabbit hole and impulse bought a set of DT990 80 ohm to upgrade my Sennheiser HD555.... Lol

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Old 04-01-2022, 02:09 PM   #16
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Well, I believe I get the gist of what you're saying. I was all set on the cool JDS dac and amp set up and now I think that's probably not the way to go.

Mostly these DT990's will live on my desk, for on the go I have a set of sony WH-1000XM3's and it I get desperate I got use the little creative amp or even just go straight into my phone.

Thanks again for everyone's replies and recommendations.

Following up some more, I like the look of that Astro Gaming mixamp you listed above. It's clean and simple, which is all i'm looking for. The Sennheiser, while I've like there products in the past, there is something about the GSX's that turn me off. It's pure aesthetics as I've never used one.

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Old 04-02-2022, 06:11 AM   #17
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I understood most of that, the last two sentences mean sweet FA to me though. That's an interesting point regarding the Fulla vs the creative labs. I'm lacking in knowledge about fully how DACs and amps work vs sound cards. My mind still goes to the old days whne onboard sound was terrible and you needed a creative labs card to get good audio. That doesn't seem to be the case any more? Getting one of the Fulla's will cover those bases?
So breaking my previous last-two-sentences down:

"It's nice to have those silent noise floors and max dynamic range, but overall most transducers are the primary source of signal colouration."

The gist of it is that superior electronics allow for better dynamic transience - basically: quieter quiet passages since there should be inaudible electronic noise, and louder peaks such as kickdrum note since your amp won't clip trying to drive high voltage (or/and current). However electronics tend to already be "good enough" in a lot of cases. Better than good enough is still good enough.

On the other hand, transducers - the headphones themselves and their interaction with your ear profile - have wild fluctuations. There are very few, if any, headphones that give a neutral reproduction of the source material they are fed. Even the best headphones have their own unique sound - and this is not ideal behaviour. You don't want a camera that filters your photographs - it would suck to have a consistent greenish tone on any pictures you shoot, right?. You want a camera that reproduces reality. And on the other end of that, you don't want a monitor to add a green tone to those pictures either. Sure, someone might enjoy manually adding a filter to these pictures for artistic reasons - but that should be individualized to the art. You want accurate transducers - cameras, microphones, monitors, speakers, headphones, and all the electronics in between.

Well headphones by nature struggle to be accurate, and so are the greatest weakness in the signal chain, by far. Which leads into:

"Are you using your DT990s with a convolution to something like the Harman curve?"

Convolution filters basically take the raw frequency response of your headphones, and apply aggressive finite impulse response modifications to the outgoing frequency response to make it as close to neutral as possible. Think of it as very specific automatic corrections to your headphone's innate flaws. It's a very powerful method of equalization, far moreso than the types of EQ most are familiar with.

The Harman curve is probably (with room for debate) the closest thing we have to neutral reproduction of the source material - it's equivalent-ish to flat frequency response from a loudspeaker system.

So by using a convolution on your PC with your DT990s, as long as your electronics are good enough, you should get the closest you can to accurate sound reproduction (neutral). It's like calibrating your TV. Sort of a no-brainer when you spend that much money on headphones!

As for the second half of your post:

Sound cards ARE DACS and amplifiers, among other things. And a lot of onboard sound is actually very good these days. The one drawback of onboard sound - and this was magnified in the distance past - is that there can be a lot of EM interference from other devices in a PC - for example the video card when running may generate a flux that passes right through your sound board and wreak havoc on your noise floor by inducing random beeps and hums. The grounding system of the PC might also be a source of noise. Without going into a full electronics engineering course - let's just say that own its own most onboard sound is likely good enough, although high impedance headphones with limited sensitivity may require more amplification (but again - don't assume onboard doesn't have great amplification itself!). A lot of measurable noise isn't necessarily audible. A lot of audible noise isn't necessarily perceptable in an environment that may have furnace vents, computer fans, nearby freeway traffic, wind, etc. Electronics noise is only one small part of the goal of lowering your noise floor.

The main benefit of dedicated or outbound dacs and amplifiers is that they have more measures in place to isolate the sound from the computer's electronic noise. All they are getting from the computer is a digital bitstream, and then they are the devices responsible for creating the analogue signal that will ultimately arrive at the transducer (the headphone drivers).

Separates such as the JDS Labs pieces I linked earlier are definitely a premium solution. Do you need 470hp from your car to drive down crowchild at 7 am on a tuesday? Nah but that doesn't stop boys from wanting our toys.

p.s. not to get too recursive on you but:

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Well headphones by nature struggle to be accurate, and so are the greatest weakness in the signal chain, by far.
Oh yeah, one addendum to this:

Incompetent studio mastering is the greatest weakness in some signal chains, especially contemporary music production. Dynamic range compression is a huge problem and it's intentionally implemented into source material by people who are supposed to be professionals.
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Old 04-02-2022, 12:49 PM   #18
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GranteedEV, thanks for the breakdown in more laymans terms. What you said had been percolating and making sense but this further helped me understand. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

I have noticed the sound coming out of the onboard is pretty solid. However, I don't have any volume control and I need a cable extension. Also, I like getting tech for the sake of tech so I'll likely ditch the onboard for one of the options discussed in this thread so far.

So I guess my final question is regarding the JDS's. I really like the look of those and they seem like they are what I'm looking for. Not buckwild expensive but still very serviceable. I don't think I have sensitive enough ears that I'd really notice the difference between the Atom's and something 2 or 3 times more expensive. But when I look at the Astro Gaming mixamp it seems to have 'settings' that the JDS's lack on it's right hand dial. While I get the overall gist of what you're saying I don't have enough knowledge of the finer details to fully understand them.

Basically, I want the JDS's and I'm looking for an excuse to get them, but would still be happy with the Astro amp.
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Old 04-02-2022, 01:10 PM   #19
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The jds is a great choice from a pure sound / musical perspective. If you buy the amp I'm sure you'll have it around for years. It's just more robust than the other options you're looking at, and it will have an external power supply which to me really differentiates it.

That way if you're looking to upgrade the dac part vs your motherboard, you can add the jds dac or any other dac.
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Old 04-02-2022, 01:14 PM   #20
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But when I look at the Astro Gaming mixamp it seems to have 'settings' that the JDS's lack on it's right hand dial. .
? The right hand dial seems to be a microphone gain dial. I'm a little unclear what you're referring to.
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