Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Put another way, when you first responded, you asked White Out 403 to look at the tone of his post and think to himself, "what did you think was going to be the response when you post something that provocative"? You could have asked exactly the same question of Crown Royal. Maybe some self-reflection on your part is appropriate: why didn't you? Why not apply that same reasoning to the guy coming in and calling people explicitly, or tacitly, racist?

Because indes had already effectively done that, in my opinion. How many posts calling out Crown would reasonably be enough, in your opinion? Because we're at how many now, exactly?

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Funny thing is WO calls Acey, a known black poster a racist, and there is little outcry. But a known black poster calls someone a racist and there is several pages about how I am ruining the thread.

People want to see the problem? Look at that.

To be fair I could probably give you some tips that I've learned from having the "homophobia" conversation with people.

I think people would probably better understand if they had ever actually been in the shoes of someone who has to deal with hate and discrimination for who they are. Yes, when you call out what you feel is evidence of it or when you see it's influence in the views of others, it may not always come out well or polite, but it's rarely coming from a place of calm and measuredness to begin with. It's very difficult to see, and the expectation is that you must always be a perfect gentleman in educating someone else about what you feel is wrong with their position, even if it's a position that feels like an attack on your personally.

I think looking back you'll want to handle that moment differently. But I have been there, and it is the furthest thing from easy to experience, and the easiest thing in the world to criticise.

I see little bits of evidence of homophobia here even today. Most I have to consciously ignore, other (more apparent) ones I've called out as politely as possible. Because this is what happens when you don't. And sadly, most of it goes unchecked and unquestioned by everyone else unless it's, as Cecil said, something as extreme as "kill all ____."

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Except this hasn't ####ing happened.

Seems to be getting closer. If it's not, and you only have problem with one person's opinion, then maybe you can simply add one another to your ignore list?

I know it's a pretty ####ty thing to suggest if he's actually a covert bonafide KKK member spewing hate, but this honestly just appears to be a difference of opinion and I think it's pretty clear that you've both made up your mind and conceded that you have no desire to have any real debate anymore.

You're looking at Breonna Taylor as another unfortunate statistic, another unarmed Black person killed by police and no justice. It's not wrong to be mad, it's not wrong to want change and justice, I'm not saying otherwise.

White Out 403 is looking at it from the singular case. He's taking it at face value; cops executing warrant getting shot at. He's not really wrong with his position either in that regard.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Just curious, why is it different for me to call someone a racist than your buddy White Out?

I actually disagreed with him at the time and I still do. I objected to calling Candace Owens a race traitor specifically, because that accusation applied to anyone suggests that there is a body of opinions that it is acceptable for black people to hold. And that's clearly wrong. The colour of a person's skin does not dictate what their views should be.

Hell, I'd bet you could find a black person who actually does think that Breonna Taylor deserved to die for associating with a drug dealer. That person would be dumb, or an #######, or potentially a dozen other things that you could very fairly attribute to Candace Owens (who absolutely sucks). But if you want to call them a "race traitor", I'm just never going to be on board with that, for precisely the reasons I just explained.

So I was actually really clear about what I thought in that instance and what my moral principles were on that issue. Now you're trying to tie me to WO403's views, despite my having repeatedly either disagreed with him or made statements that were contrary to his views, to try to win an argument. You're making Derek Sutton's point for him.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because indes had already effectively done that, in my opinion. How many posts calling out Crown would reasonably be enough, in your opinion? Because we're at how many now, exactly?

A number of posters, object to him behaving in the way he has been behaving in here. That behaviour has not stopped. Why would criticism of it stop? He keeps re-instantiating the very thing we were objecting to. And people don't even have the reasonable fallback that if they just ignore it the mods will deal with it, either.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Seems to be getting closer. If it's not, and you only have problem with one person's opinion, then maybe you can simply add one another to your ignore list?

I know it's a pretty ####ty thing to suggest if he's actually a covert bonafide KKK member spewing hate, but this honestly just appears to be a difference of opinion and I think it's pretty clear that you've both made up your mind and conceded that you have no desire to have any real debate anymore.

Search the thread and read his posts, you will see a theme. It's blatantly obvious.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I actually disagreed with him at the time and I still do. I objected to calling Candace Owens a race traitor specifically, because that accusation applied to anyone suggests that there is a body of opinions that it is acceptable for black people to hold. And that's clearly wrong. The colour of a person's skin does not dictate what their views should be.

Hell, I'd bet you could find a black person who actually does think that Breonna Taylor deserved to die for associating with a drug dealer. That person would be dumb, or an #######, or potentially a dozen other things that you could very fairly attribute to Candace Owens (who absolutely sucks). But if you want to call them a "race traitor", I'm just never going to be on board with that, for precisely the reasons I just explained.

So I was actually really clear about what I thought in that instance and what my moral principles were on that issue. Now you're trying to tie me to WO403's views, despite my having repeatedly either disagreed with him or made statements that were contrary to his views, to try to win an argument. You're making Derek Sutton's point for him.

I'm making his point for him, even though I outright stated I don't think you are racist?

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Search the thread and read his posts, you will see a theme. It's blatantly obvious.

I have. Outright racist? No. Ignorant? Maybe/probably.

The theme I see, however, is someone who is trying to gather more information. Yelling at that isn't going to help someone understand your perspective.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

I have. Outright racist? No. Ignorant? Maybe/probably.

The theme I see, however, is someone who is trying to gather more information. Yelling at that isn't going to help someone understand your perspective.

He's not aggressively racist, I have stated that, but the pattern of him always looking for reasons to blame black victims is there. He even pushes false information despite being corrected repeatedly.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Search the thread and read his posts, you will see a theme. It's blatantly obvious.

Let's start with his first:

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I dont blame black people for this outrage. Policing in the US has been in crisis for years, and innocent people are dying.

Not sure that's the theme you were going for.

Originally Posted by White Out 403

So, unless I have my data and facts wrong, which is totally possible, I think the debate will boil down to this.

White people, per interaction with police in the USA , are killed more often than black people. But black people have so many more interaction with the police their overall rate of being killed is higher.

So is there systmetic racism causing higher incidence interaction? Is it due to poverty? Is that poverty also caused by systmetic racism? What can be done by that?

These are difficult and nuanced issues so I expect it won't be discussed in general public discourse.

Nostradamus over here.

[White Out 403]

This is BoLevi style trolling at this point. Incredible.

[PsYcNeT]

Man I can't get enough of this decorum chat. It's a feast for the senses.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Seems to be getting closer. If it's not, and you only have problem with one person's opinion, then maybe you can simply add one another to your ignore list?

I know it's a pretty ####ty thing to suggest if he's actually a covert bonafide KKK member spewing hate, but this honestly just appears to be a difference of opinion and I think it's pretty clear that you've both made up your mind and conceded that you have no desire to have any real debate anymore.

You're looking at Breonna Taylor as another unfortunate statistic, another unarmed Black person killed by police and no justice. It's not wrong to be mad, it's not wrong to want change and justice, I'm not saying otherwise.

White Out 403 is looking at it from the singular case. He's taking it at face value; cops executing warrant getting shot at. He's not really wrong with his position either in that regard.

Excellent post and I touched on this earlier (see below).

Even if Breonna was 100% guilty, it doesn’t change the fact she’s yet another unarmed black person shot by police. The details almost don’t matter, it’s the larger pattern that does. So it’s understandable there will be some disagreement when looking at this from a micro vs macro level.

But the point is, there is no discussions happening like this for white people (and if there are, they aren’t as relevant to racism and more a discussion about poverty, mental health and police violence). And that’s because we don’t have to break down the details in every “white guy killed by cops” story because they don’t exist with nearly the same frequency as “black guy killed by cops”. That’s kind of the whole issue, right? It’s not whether Breonna was innocent, it’s that she’s yet another PoC killed by police. Who cares if she was guilty? There’s 50 more cases that we could use as better examples of police racism and systemic racism, this is just the most recent and attention grabbing story.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

There is definitely a disconnect between the facts and the narrative surrounding the Breonna Taylor case.

In the end, I’m not sure how much the details matter, in the big picture, because all people see is “unarmed black woman shot by police in her own home”.

There’s little to no evidence that the police who shot her were racially motivated. But it’s also likely true that the only reason they were there and entered the way they did, was due to the colour of her skin. However I think that’s more a sign of systemic racism rather than the individuals being motivated by race.

It’s probably the right choice the officers who stormed her home weren’t charged. But it’s so hard for people in the USA right now to exercise restraint given the dozens and dozens of other overtly racist murders and shootings by police.

I view cases like these as more symbolic of the nations problems rather than a perfect example of them. It’s the tipping point.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I'm making his point for him, even though I outright stated I don't think you are racist?

You're trying to suggest that my posts in this thread are motivated by racial bias. In one instance you actually stated that I was acting in a racist manner. That was coupled with a patronizing and idiotic suggestion that said "racism" was borne of ignorance, which was also a nice touch. You're clearly trying to weaponize accusations of racism against people who have a problem with the way you conduct yourself, rather than simply attributing those objections to the way you conduct yourself.

Here's a tip: take me at my word. If I say I think the way you're acting is childish and crappy, maybe that's just what I think is true. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with anyone's skin colour, but rather my opinion about how people should act on this forum. Given that you don't know me, that would be the rational conclusion to draw, rather than conducting a desperate search for some other motivation for my criticism that lets you off the hook entirely for the utterly ####ty way you're acting.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I didn't even do this. I objected to someone calling another poster a piece of ####. If someone actually posts something that's explicitly racist in here - nakedly promoting hatred against a racial group - I don't have any problem at all if the mods want to ban them. Hell, I'll be the first to report that post. All I said was that you shouldn't be allowed to call a poster an "ignorant ####ing piece of ####" because of an objection to his posts.

As noted, I think there are a lot of ways a person can be a bad person. One of them is to be racist, but there are many others, and some of them apply to people here, based on what I've seen them post. But if I'm not allowed to my moral judgment of those posters as a basis to call them ignorant ####ing pieces of ####, neither should any other poster on here, regardless of his motivations for doing so.

... Of course apparently that's all moot now because that's no longer the rule.

Allow me to adopt the new standard implemented by Jiri on the prior page: My statement that you shouldn't be allowed to break the forum rules is in no way a racist action, and you're an ignorant ####ing piece of #### for implying that it is.

I now await the excellent results that I am assured will come of having directed that language at you.

... Aaaaany minute now.

If this is really about not calling people piece of ####, I'm happy to go back and hand out infractions against that specifically.

But I don't think that's what this is about.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Even if Breonna was 100% guilty, it doesn’t change the fact she’s yet another unarmed black person shot by police. The details almost don’t matter, it’s the larger pattern that does.

Back on the actual topic, I don't really agree. Each case needs to be judged on its merits, and in each case, if what the police did was worthy of legal sanction (e.g. a murder charge), that charge needs to be laid and the historical practice of circling the wagons in the police department and police union needs to stop. I thought that was what everyone was after here. The "larger pattern" - the narrative of police violence - is only important to the extent that it helps to serve that goal.

But the point is, there is no discussions happening like this for white people (and if there are, they aren’t as relevant to racism and more a discussion about poverty, mental health and police violence). And that’s because we don’t have to break down the details in every “white guy killed by cops” story because they don’t exist with nearly the same frequency as “black guy killed by cops”.

This isn't remotely true.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/states

There are more unarmed white people killed by police than unarmed black people each year. There are also a significant number of unarmed hispanic people. There are more unarmed black people per capita shot by police. One reason for that is systemic racism. Another reason, you'd have to assume, is actual dyed-in-the-wool racist cops. Then there are a bunch of other reasons, like population distribution, some of which are themselves in turn partly the result of systemic racism.

This is obviously a very fraught issue, and I think that it's for exactly that reason that a straightforward, clear understanding of the facts - the facts of each case, and the broader facts about society - is so important. Nothing's getting done otherwise.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If this is really about not calling people piece of ####, I'm happy to go back and hand out infractions against that specifically.

But I don't think that's what this is about.

It's certainly what it was about initially. Subsequently it became about being accused of acting in a racist fashion simply for objecting to calling people pieces of ####. I would think that would be obvious, considering I've consistently objected to people making implicit judgments about other people's motivations that they haven't themselves stated.

Why, what do you think this is about, exactly?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If this is really about not calling people piece of ####, I'm happy to go back and hand out infractions against that specifically.

But I don't think that's what this is about.

No, it is actually about our white fragility when personal attacks are launched against us.

To be quite honest, had you gone back and handed out infractions or warnings, things wouldn't have gotten worse because at the very least the personal attacks, which are what most have a problem with, would have stopped. But instead you made up some dubious BS claim and now we're a few pages later and things have gotten even worse.

I'm all for letting the posters figure it out, but I think you messed up on this one, and I admit it is a tough thread to moderate.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, it is actually about our white fragility when personal attacks are launched against us.

To be quite honest, had you gone back and handed out infractions or warnings, things wouldn't have gotten worse because at the very least the personal attacks, which are what most have a problem with, would have stopped. But instead you made up some dubious BS claim and now we're a few pages later and things have gotten even worse.

I'm all for letting the posters figure it out, but I think you messed up on this one, and I admit it is a tough thread to moderate.

You view them as "getting worse".
My view is that some of these discussions need to happen in very real and raw ways.
I don't think sending out a couple infractions from this thread would have actually solved anything.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

A number of posters, object to him behaving in the way he has been behaving in here. That behaviour has not stopped. Why would criticism of it stop? He keeps re-instantiating the very thing we were objecting to. And people don't even have the reasonable fallback that if they just ignore it the mods will deal with it, either.

"The person we keep responding to keeps responding back in the way we don't like! However will we make this stop? I know, we'll keep responding. THAT is how we will stop these responses from continuing."

Sound.

Welcome to an internet mob, folks. Enjoy your experience. May it guide your future criticisms of their existence.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

"The person we keep responding to keeps responding back in the way we don't like! However will we make this stop? I know, we'll keep responding. THAT is how we will stop these responses from continuing."

I mean, fair point, but as you're well aware given your own posting history it's kind of tough to just throw your hands up and walk away from someone who's repeatedly addressing you directly and saying ####ty things about you.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

"The person we keep responding to keeps responding back in the way we don't like! However will we make this stop? I know, we'll keep responding. THAT is how we will stop these responses from continuing."

Sound.

Welcome to an internet mob, folks. Enjoy your experience. May it guide your future criticisms of their existence.

It does appear that Jiri, in an attempt to bend the knee and admit his white fragility, is willing to let this thread/forum become an unreadable thunderdome

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

It does appear that Jiri, in an attempt to bend the knee and admit his white fragility, is willing to let this thread/forum become an unreadable thunderdome

No in fact I was very clear I wasn't speaking for the mod group.
I don't set moderation policy, certainly not alone.
Moreover is this really matters in this discussion? The moderation approach to the conversation. I mean dear lord I would hope the actually conversation is what matters.