Ethiopian Max 8 crashes, Canadians on board

[GGG]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There are significant differences. You make the informed choice on whether or not to pay for those extra safety features. 200 people get on board these planes with the (apparently false) expectation that the airplane manufacturer has done everything within their capabilities to make the plane not crash.

The false assumption is that an airplane manufacturer does everything in their capability to make planes not crash.

A plane is designed to have catostophic failures at a rate less than 10^-9.

If the plane does not require these features to meet that standard than it is not required.

[Acey]

I wonder if a non-ETOPS plane (i.e. all of Air Canada's Airbus planes that many have sworn to now exclusively fly) ditched in Lake Winnipeg and people would be shocked to discover it didn't have life rafts because all that equipment is not required. People like nfotiu would probably not ever fly again if I told you all the "don't crash" stuff that's optional equipment.

The fallacy, of course, is statements like "when don't crash is an optional feature"

[FlameOn]

Indonesia's largest carrier starts cancellation process for their 737 Maxes. Boeing to take a $5B hit.

Indonesia's largest air carrier has informed Boeing that it wants to cancel a $4.9 billion order for 49 Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft. Garuda Indonesia spokesperson Ikhsan Rosan said in a statement to the Associated Press that the airline was cancelling due to concern that “its business would be damaged due to customer alarm over the crashes.”

Garuda had originally ordered 50 737 MAX aircraft, and Boeing delivered the first of those aircraft in December of 2017. The airline already operates 77 older Boeing 737 models; two of the aircraft ordered were conversions from earlier orders for 737-800s. Garuda also flies Boeing's 777-300 ER, and the company retired its 747-400 fleet in the last few years—so the airline was looking for an economical long-range aircraft to fill in gaps.

But the stigma now attached to the 737 MAX 8 may have spoiled that relationship. The airline also has orders in for 14 of Airbus' A330neo, a wide-body design comparable to Boeing's 787 Dreamliner; the airline also flies 24 earlier-model A330s. If Garuda successfully breaks its deal with Boeing, the likely winner will be Airbus. Airbus' A320neo is the most comparable aircraft to the 737 MAX in cost and range.

The Garuda cancellation would only put a small dent in the number of total 737 MAX aircraft on order. Based on data from Boeing, as of February there were 4,636 unfilled orders, so the outstanding order from Garuda would account for a little more than one percent of Boeing's backlog. Still, Garuda's exit could signal bigger long-term problems for Boeing as other carriers with mixed fleets of aircraft re-evaluate their positions.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...rash-concerns/

[Acey]

Garuda is a Barry Bonds asterisk on this one, since they couldn't afford them anyway... but that'd be detrimental to the desired narrative.

[Ryan Coke]

Keep in mind that MCAS is actually an automated safety system that was included for everyone, no extra cost. Unfortunately, and this is the real issue, that automated safety system appears to have been poorly designed.

I also didn’t mention, that of course the AOA sensors are standard equipment, and they feed data into the displays....they provide information integrated onto the airspeed tape, but not a dedicated AOA display.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Keep in mind that MCAS is actually an automated safety system that was included for everyone, no extra cost. Unfortunately, and this is the real issue, that automated safety system appears to have been poorly designed.

I also didn’t mention, that of course the AOA sensors are standard equipment, and they feed data into the displays....they provide information integrated onto the airspeed tape, but not a dedicated AOA display.

Is MCAS a system that could have saved Air France 447?

[Ducay]

MCAS is stricktly a Max8 thing; just auto-nose-downs the trim in certain situations so that it flies like a normal 737, since Max8 has forward engine positions that could feel weird for pilots coming from other jets. It was designed (ironically) so their existing reactions and instincts would remain valid on the Max8 given it behaves differently.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Ducay

MCAS is stricktly a Max8 thing; just auto-nose-downs the trim in certain situations so that it flies like a normal 737, since Max8 has forward engine positions that could feel weird for pilots coming from other jets. It was designed (ironically) so their existing reactions and instincts would remain valid on the Max8 given it behaves differently.

It's not that it could feel weird to pilots. Its that the engine size and placement made this plane unstable.
It's literally a patch for bad design. Bad design born out of the fact that to save money they decided to use the old planes body rather than creating an entirely new plane.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Is MCAS a system that could have saved Air France 447?

AF447 is a completely different animal, that Airbus is a fly-by-wire system that takes sidestick inputs from the pilots and makes decisions about what to do with the control surfaces to keep the airplane in a safe flight envelope. Full-time multi-redundant MCAS, if you will?

But I'm trying to reach a bigger overarching point. That Airbus is smarter than any 737 will ever be. There were no "don't crash" options omitted. It still entered a stall and crashed. It speaks to the assumption that an AOA disagree light is some guarantee that we wouldn't have lost these airplanes.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Is MCAS a system that could have saved Air France 447?

No. Airbus planes are built entirely differently.

The junior pilot flying AF447 (I encourage you all to look up the Air Crash Investigation video on YouTube) was holding the stick upwards the entire time, which caused the stall.

The A330's FBW system does not let the pilot pitch up if it thinks the pilot's actions will endanger the aircraft. (Acey or Ryan Coke, correct me if I am wrong on anything here...I am writing this entire post off memory while walking through the +15, lol)

The problem with AF447 was that the pitot tubes were entirety iced over due to those parts having a defect, so the airplane said, I don't know what my airspeed, altitude and AOA are, so I'm shutting off all of my gadgets and handing control over to you, Mr Pilot. All they had to do was fly straight and level for half an hour.

Even though the systems managed to play an alarm that literally keeps yelling "STALL, STALL", the pilots had no idea what was wrong. Not only until the junior F/O Bonin finally said "I've been pulling up this whole time!", did the senior F/O realize what was going on...at 4000 feet above the ocean.

By that point, the plane was dropping like a rock, and they never recovered.

The Captain, by the way, by far the most experienced, earlier decided to take his nap/break, despite the fact that the plane was about to enter a big storm.

[Stealth22]

The fixes are supposedly being reviewed next week.

https://gizmodo.com/boeing-software-...tat-1833521139

[Red]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

The fixes are supposedly being reviewed next week.

https://gizmodo.com/boeing-software-...tat-1833521139

Awesome. I am glad they didn't rush this.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Captain Sully with a less than stellar view of the FAA in recent times..

https://www.barrons.com/articles/add...at-51553287281

[Red]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Captain Sully with a less than stellar view of the FAA in recent times..

https://www.barrons.com/articles/add...at-51553287281

? Bad link?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There is no equivalent critical safety option in cars, and it is disingenuous to even suggest that.

Airbags, ABS, stability control have all been options at some point. Now there are all sorts of optional collision avoidance systems.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Red

? Bad link?

https://www.barrons.com/articles/cap...ga-51553013295

[Stealth22]

Pilots in the Lion Air 737 Max crash tried to prevent it by hitting a switch again and again, unaware there were 3 other steps they needed to take, report says

The article is quite vague, but it sounds like the pilots kept reversing the trim movements made by MCAS, but didn't take it a step further and flick the trim cutoff switches? Acey/Ryan Coke?


China Suspends Airworthiness Certificate for Boeing 737 Max Jet

Interesting, but that move comes off as very political...


In Test of Boeing Jet, Pilots Had 40 Seconds to Fix Error

Boeing holds test flights for 737 MAX fix: sources

[Ryan Coke]

Yes that’s right Stealth, captain was counter trimming quite effectively for a while, then gave control to the FO who didn’t trim back as much until he lost control, from what I have seen.

[Resolute 14]

Well, this is not going to help. Southwest Airlines 737 Max declared an emergency shortly after takeoff on a positioning flight from Orlando. Safely returned to the airport though.

https://apnews.com/395ab1ad581840f1bb85ce6c44abb272

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, this is not going to help. Southwest Airlines 737 Max declared an emergency shortly after takeoff on a positioning flight from Orlando. Safely returned to the airport though.

https://apnews.com/395ab1ad581840f1bb85ce6c44abb272

Engine problems though no?