Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Fuzz]

With all the admin, cleaning, technical, kitchen etc I can see it getting up to 500 if they can run a few conferences a month.

[marsplasticeraser]

If calgary can land destination conferences, where people fly or drive in, then it's easy to see the FT jobs and boom to the local economy.

Calgary is also a fairly easy sell as a destination conference, thanks to the mountains and relatively low-cost of hotels.

It's a no-brainer for a lot of people to get a direct flight to Calgary, go to a conference in a compact central area with lots of (relatively cheap) hotels, then when it's over go to Banff/Lake Louise for a few days.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

With all the admin, cleaning, technical, kitchen etc I can see it getting up to 500 if they can run a few conferences a month.

[temple5]

Who is funding the BMO expansion? Is it totally City dollars or is there some contribution from the Feds/Province.

In Canada these decisions arent as easy for Cities as they are in the US where they have local City income tax and sales taxes. The only way the City makes any money from this investment is in increased property tax value and hotel tax.

I dont doubt its overall impact on the people and businesses in Calgary but from an investment point of view the City itself will likely never see those investment dollars returned. the Province and the Feds will see the majority of the windfall from tax increases.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by jayswin

How the heck does an expansion of the BMO centre create 500 permanent jobs and bring in $267m a year?!! At the risk of coming off as an uneducated citizen that seems like completely fabricated bull****.

Just to expand on the other posts, the big thing with conentions is that they bring in people from outside the city, and those people spend money on hotels, they tend to go out and eat every day and night, some get to play with expense accounts, they're big economic drivers. While for hockey games a lot of people might go to a game and go home without spending anything, or at least not spend anything outside of the arena, conventions like that have most delegates all spending money in the area.



The reason the Rotary Conference is such a big deal is because it's expected to bring in 20,000+ people. That's a lot of hotel rooms filled, that's a lot of meals being bought at restaurants, that's a lot of drinks being served, that's some local entertainment being employed to cater to delegates, etc. Now one big conference in 2025 doesn't make or break a district, but that's just an example of one big conference over a few days generating massive amounts of economic activity. A consistent amount of smaller ones can do the same as well. A couple thousand delegates and exhibitors coming in from out of town fills a lot of seats in local venues and a lot of hotel rooms. $267M worth of activity? Maybe not, but a lot more believable than an arena doing the same.



As for the jobs, my guess is that would include jobs with the hotel partner for the site as well, but I have nothing to base that on.

[Muta]

With this facility and the surrounding development, we'll become a tier 1 convention city. We'll be able to host the largest conventions in the world, including growing our own (ComicCon is already one of the biggest in the world, and could grow even bigger). This will be a massive economic boon to retail, hospitality and tourism industries, and a great way to bring revenue into the city.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by temple5

Who is funding the BMO expansion? Is it totally City dollars or is there some contribution from the Feds/Province.

In Canada these decisions arent as easy for Cities as they are in the US where they have local City income tax and sales taxes. The only way the City makes any money from this investment is in increased property tax value and hotel tax.

I dont doubt its overall impact on the people and businesses in Calgary but from an investment point of view the City itself will likely never see those investment dollars returned. the Province and the Feds will see the majority of the windfall from tax increases.

1/3 each order of government.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Muta

With this facility and the surrounding development, we'll become a tier 1 convention city. We'll be able to host the largest conventions in the world, including growing our own (ComicCon is already one of the biggest in the world, and could grow even bigger). This will be a massive economic boon to retail, hospitality and tourism industries, and a great way to bring revenue into the city.

I know what you are saying and mostly agree. More larger conventions would be huge benefit to Calgary. But at only 15,000 hotel rooms in the city and many of those not centralized, the accommodations are a limiting factor for "the largest". Westin has 500 rooms. Ryman hotel properties (largest non-gaming) are around 2,000 per hotel. The 40th largest convention in Vegas was 10,000 people.

What is the Telus convention center? Does it have rooms?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

I know what you are saying and mostly agree. More larger conventions would be huge benefit to Calgary. But at only 15,000 hotel rooms in the city and many of those not centralized, the accommodations are a limiting factor for "the largest". Westin has 500 rooms. Ryman hotel properties (largest non-gaming) are around 2,000 per hotel. The 40th largest convention in Vegas was 10,000 people.

What is the Telus convention center? Does it have rooms?

Well we have some empty office towers they could use...

[GGG]

Your never going to be Vegas or Orlando. The goal is to be in the tier of cities behind them

[Muta]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

I know what you are saying and mostly agree. More larger conventions would be huge benefit to Calgary. But at only 15,000 hotel rooms in the city and many of those not centralized, the accommodations are a limiting factor for "the largest". Westin has 500 rooms. Ryman hotel properties (largest non-gaming) are around 2,000 per hotel. The 40th largest convention in Vegas was 10,000 people.

What is the Telus convention center? Does it have rooms?

There definitely is a shortage of hotel rooms in the city, but I think with the construction of the convention centre there will be an increased appetite from hotel companies to build more here. If City Centre Phase II goes ahead, that will be a residence tower with a five-star Ritz Carlton in it (from what I can remember). Rumour has it there is a planned hotel north of the convention centre site as well. These are just off the top of my head, too.

There's lots of room for growth. Hell, maybe even residence / hotel conversions of current office towers will be an option too.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Muta

With this facility and the surrounding development, we'll become a tier 1 convention city. We'll be able to host the largest conventions in the world, including growing our own (ComicCon is already one of the biggest in the world, and could grow even bigger). This will be a massive economic boon to retail, hospitality and tourism industries, and a great way to bring revenue into the city.

Tier 1? Wee bit of a stretch although guess it depends on how you big of a definition of tier 1 - if you've got 30 North American cities maybe.

There's a clear big 3 you've got no shot of competing with in Vegas, Orlando and Chicago.

Then big cities everyone can get to - New York, Atlanta, Washington, Dallas, Denver, Toronto, Vancouver/Seattle, Miami, Houston. etc

Then destinations where the location is a draw which is where Calgary would need to fit in - Nashville, San Diego, Austin, New Orleans

Think you're looking at tier 2 for Western based companies and tier 3 for Eastern.

Which is still good and can make you lot of money.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Tier 1 Canadian on par with Vancouver and behind Toronto.

[Manhattanboy]

Unless things around here change in a big way I see this town trending a lot more towards Winnipeg than Toronto/Vancouver.....

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Muta

There definitely is a shortage of hotel rooms in the city, but I think with the construction of the convention centre there will be an increased appetite from hotel companies to build more here. If City Centre Phase II goes ahead, that will be a residence tower with a five-star Ritz Carlton in it (from what I can remember). Rumour has it there is a planned hotel north of the convention centre site as well. These are just off the top of my head, too.

There's lots of room for growth. Hell, maybe even residence / hotel conversions of current office towers will be an option too.

Yeah, it's a bit of "if you build it..." with hoteliers.

Trump is probably going to want a new property too.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Unless things around here change in a big way I see this town trending a lot more towards Winnipeg than Toronto/Vancouver.....

Like the planned BMO expansion? Add to that a completed cultural and entertainment district... Kinda like what The Forks has brought to the revilization of Winnipeg.

[Manhattanboy]

Thinking bigger Alberta picture, governments, pipelines....

But agree if things like the new arena get off the ground soon with BMO and related development, it will be a nice shot in the arm for the City,

[marsplasticeraser]

I used to think that as well, until I talked to people who had moved to Calgary (and to a lesser extent people who had relocated to Denver and US Western Rocky Mountain states).

It's clear that there are large groups of people that want to live near mountains. Not everybody mind you, but a place like Calgary is very attractive to a lot of people in Eastern Canada and the US. It's also attractive for small-town SK, AB, BC people who want a bigger city.

I look at the evolution of Denver or SLC as comparable places to conceptualize the future of Calgary.

And while the current economic climate in Calgary isn't good, eventually Calgary will have shifted away from a pure O&G industry town (which is good in good times and terrible in bad times) into a more diversified and stable economy.

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Unless things around here change in a big way I see this town trending a lot more towards Winnipeg than Toronto/Vancouver.....

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

I used to think that as well, until I talked to people who had moved to Calgary (and to a lesser extent people who had relocated to Denver and US Western Rocky Mountain states).

It's clear that there are large groups of people that want to live near mountains. Not everybody mind you, but a place like Calgary is very attractive to a lot of people in Eastern Canada and the US. It's also attractive for small-town SK, AB, BC people who want a bigger city.

I look at the evolution of Denver or SLC as comparable places to conceptualize the future of Calgary.

And while the current economic climate in Calgary isn't good, eventually Calgary will have shifted away from a pure O&G industry town (which is good in good times and terrible in bad times) into a more diversified and stable economy.

I don't think Calgary will ever be more than what it was at the height of O&G. Whether it gets back to that point is up for discussion but being a transient city I don't ever seeing it building back to that point without O&G.

I suspect 30 years from Calgary will be about what it is now.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Tier 1? Wee bit of a stretch although guess it depends on how you big of a definition of tier 1 - if you've got 30 North American cities maybe.

There's a clear big 3 you've got no shot of competing with in Vegas, Orlando and Chicago.

Then big cities everyone can get to - New York, Atlanta, Washington, Dallas, Denver, Toronto, Vancouver/Seattle, Miami, Houston. etc

Then destinations where the location is a draw which is where Calgary would need to fit in - Nashville, San Diego, Austin, New Orleans

Think you're looking at tier 2 for Western based companies and tier 3 for Eastern.

Which is still good and can make you lot of money.

Yes there is huge group of cities a la Dallas, Denver, Atlanta where they are such a transportation hub that they become prime convention spots.

Given Calgary's weather which can cause travel delays and its lack of centrality, I don't see any way the city can compete with those spots.

Need to be more of a regional and niche draw which can still be good.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I don't think Calgary will ever be more than what it was at the height of O&G.

well, not with that attitude it won't.