Seven Days in Kabul

[btimbit]

Watching this unfold is very interesting, despite being sadly predictable.

Doubt the Taliban messes with any evacuations, they don't want to give the West an excuse to spark another 15 years of 'occupation' (from their point of view)

Like I touched on, my biggest concern is definitely assisting those that assisted us. Get those people here

[Baron von Kriterium]

Criminal gangs have taken advantage of the security gap in Kabul and are looting. Others are panicking and over-powering policemen, stealing their weapons. Taliban are moving deeper into the city and telling people to stay at home until they take over Kabul completely and reestablish order. So, it's a sensitive situation right now with a mix of gangs, ANDSF deserters, Taliban and NATO troops.

US evac their embassy:


Kabul shop owners are already preparing for Taliban rule, erasing pictures of women in western bridal wear.

[OldDutch]

What a humanitarian disaster. I can’t believe in 2021 we fight about a round earth, masks, and protecting your allies properly. How the Americans couldn’t have held the Taliban off until they got their allies out will go down as a massive blunder. Watch women and children get slaughtered on the news may even cone to haunt Trudeau and his vanity election.

Joe Biden: "There's gonna be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of a embassy of the United States from Afghanistan. It is not at all comparable."

[Bagor]

What was the plan for Afghanistan?

I mean, what else did they think was going to happen?

[Baron von Kriterium]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426932958561198088

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426934298213593090

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426928943827808256

[8 Ball]

Just awful. Bring them hear ffs.

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426862092427087872

Of note, Al-Qaeada loons are now walking free after the Taliban's prison breaks. The prison breaks have always been crucial to the Jihadi cause. And now Al-Qaeada can welcome important figures back into the fold.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

Just awful. Bring them hear ffs.

Nope, Trudeau needs to hold an election; he ain't got time for this.

[Cheese]

I read this quote on Twitter:


"I believe we should have trained the women of Afghanistan, they would have put up a better fight!"

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What was the plan for Afghanistan?

I mean, what else did they think was going to happen?

Well, here is what I think but may not necessarily be true.

The initial intent was to rout Al-Qaeada and remove the Taliban from power. After that, the whole mission turned into some wishy-washy nation-building exercise full of nice words like democracy and equality and women's rights, etc. Ironically, it was the Soviets who were doing their best to provide women's rights to Afghan women when Uncle Sam decided to arm and support religious fanatics in order to overthrow the communist government. Anyway, that's a bit off track.

Back to my first point. USA/NATO routed the Afghan state but the Taliban slithered off into the mountains and villages and USA/NATO allowed Al-Qaeada to escape into Pakistan. Whether that was by design or a mistake is anyone's guess. Cynically, I will suggest that had USA/NATO defeated Taliban and Al-Qaeda in detail, there wouldn't have been any requirement for them to remain in Afghanistan. And then there was the Pakistan problem. Despite knowing they harboured the terrorists, we couldn't (or wouldn't) pressure Pakistan because Pakistan was vital in order to logistically support our forces via a land corridor. Not to mention, USA/NATO required Pakistan's air space to conduct operations. Anyway, the USA needed a reason to remain in Afghanistan (Iran! China! Russia! blah, blah), so bring on the idea of...

Nation-building/Democracy. Unfortunately, many 'Afghans' have no concept of the state and are not loyal to it, which is why I put Afghans in quotes. So, you can build all of this infrastructure for them, and you can promote flowery ideas like democracy and other western liberal values, but it doesn't address the fundamental issue that this part of the world is a tribal society with many ethnicities living in their own anarchies. They simply don't trust each other and the past 20 years proves why they don't trust each other. A Pashtun's (pick any ethnicity, it doesn't matter), idea of the state is to mediate disputes that could not be resolved at the local level. Thus, the tribes went to the state. For the past 20 years, the state came to them, usually in three ways: 1) the Army/Police would visit the village to conscript people; 2) Soldiers and cops would show up to the village and extort people; and 3) the tax collectors would show up to tax people.

Routing Al-Qaeda after 9-11 seemed like the logical course of action. We could have just gone there and chased down every Al-Qaeada crank in the Hindu Kush and then called it a day and gone home. But no, so here we are, back to where we started and probably worse than what the situation was in 2001.

Every officer above the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel who served in Afghanistan should apologize and resign. At the very least, they shouldn't be allowed to provide their "expertise" on cable news channels.

[Scornfire]

I'm absolutely livid that our government did not have a program in place to re-settle these people. Interpreters and their families unable to escape because of ####ing passports? Un####ingbelievable

[Baron von Kriterium]

Things are now that much more difficult for locals to leave Afghanistan...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426967309298589700

https://twitter.com/user/status/1426874216914333696

[Nyah]

My heart just breaks for these people. Even more frustrating knowing there's nothing we can do about it, no way we can help them.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Nyah

My heart just breaks for these people. Even more frustrating knowing there's nothing we can do about it, no way we can help them.

The thing that astonishes me the most is that America has literally done this before. They actually have experience with this, and its still ending the same way.

Someone has screwed up rather thoroughly and Biden should not be making references to Vietnam because you can practically put these photos side-by-side and they're damned near identical.

You could see this coming from miles away and nobody did anything to prepare for it.

So they are either colossally stupid or...this is exactly what they intended.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

I'm absolutely livid that our government did not have a program in place to re-settle these people. Interpreters and their families unable to escape because of ####ing passports? Un####ingbelievable

Yeah, this has been in the news for weeks. Surely it wasn't a surprise to the government. If it was they should spend more time paying attention to people who have risked their lives to help Canadians and less time plotting an extra election.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Locke

The thing that astonishes me the most is that America has literally done this before. They actually have experience with this, and its still ending the same way.

Someone has screwed up rather thoroughly and Biden should not be making references to Vietnam because you can practically put these photos side-by-side and they're damned near identical.

You could see this coming from miles away and nobody did anything to prepare for it.

So they are either colossally stupid or...this is exactly what they intended.

I think the problem is that we have mistaken them for people who actually care.

I do think some of this was unpredictable. The Taliban seems to be getting help or at the least, no resistance from groups that traditionally resisted them or prevented their spread.

Our governments share the majority of blame, no disagreement there. But I don't think anyone expected Aghan government forces to just surrender immediately.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

I'm absolutely livid that our government did not have a program in place to re-settle these people. Interpreters and their families unable to escape because of ####ing passports? Un####ingbelievable

It is an absolute outrage.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think the problem is that we have mistaken them for people who actually care.

I do think some of this was unpredictable. The Taliban seems to be getting help or at the least, no resistance from groups that traditionally resisted them or prevented their spread.

Our governments share the majority of blame, no disagreement there. But I don't think anyone expected Aghan government forces to just surrender immediately.

Why would you expect the Afghan government armies to maintain loyalty once you the US pulls out? If you are a general of a group of soldiers your choices are join Taliban and fight the government and be subject to Geneva convention of captured, fight the Taliban and executed if lose. And over the next 10 years who are you betting on winning? Once the US support, troops and money dried up why would you stay loyal?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why would you expect the Afghan government armies to maintain loyalty once you the US pulls out? If you are a general of a group of soldiers your choices are join Taliban and fight the government and be subject to Geneva convention of captured, fight the Taliban and executed if lose. And over the next 10 years who are you betting on winning? Once the US support, troops and money dried up why would you stay loyal?

I mean there's also the choice to actually fight with your vastly superior numerical and equipped army.

It's an awful situation for so many there, but at some point you need to stop fighting for those who won't fight for themselves.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why would you expect the Afghan government armies to maintain loyalty once you the US pulls out? If you are a general of a group of soldiers your choices are join Taliban and fight the government and be subject to Geneva convention of captured, fight the Taliban and executed if lose. And over the next 10 years who are you betting on winning? Once the US support, troops and money dried up why would you stay loyal?

Well, it certainly caught a lot of Afghan citizens off guard, and they lived there their whole lives and know their country better than anyone.

I was reading a thread on an internet forum last night (Quora) when the question was posed a few weeks ago whether Aghanistan and Kabul in particular would fall. The question was answered by Afghan citizens with denial and a complete indignance for even asking the question, then morphed into "I can't believe this is actually happening...", to complete silence. It was pretty surreal to read.