Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay but this is anecdotal bullplop.

Do you know how much a wash-bay and golf simulator cost relative to their overall financial contribution to society as a whole? No. You just see luxuries and start throwing labels around.

You know what? Screw that tower. Dont need it. Go home. You're done. Dont need you anymore.

I could say that the 50 people that got laid off last week down the street from that same company could have been kept for another 8 months-12 months if they decided against it. But you don't look at it that way.....always need trade workers, with or without a tower.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Golf simulators run $30k and most buildings have wash bays they lease to detailers. The money in buildings is the finishings and architecture.

And that might be the case if it was planned from the start, but when you add these things 3/4 the way through the job it tends to get a bit more expensive. Switching stone to marble, switching fixtures...the list goes on. Quite a bit of wasted money.

[CliffFletcher]

I guess I find it tough to get onboard with the notion that we can't tax the rich or they'll just move. So we have to tax the poor and middle-class more because they're not mobile?

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I guess I find it tough to get onboard with the notion that we can't tax the rich or they'll just move. So we have to tax the poor and middle-class more because they're not mobile?

A 50% tax increase will do that.

[Flash Walken]

Is murray edwards' income tax making or breaking alberta finance, or is more about the guys who make millions instead of billions without the luxury of moving to London 'out of protest'?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

A 50% tax increase will do that.

And yet Alberta remains one of the lowest taxed jurisdictions in North America or Europe.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Alberta remains one of the lowest taxed jurisdictions in North America or Europe.

I wonder how many individuals moved here during the last 10 years when our taxes were lower.

If there is a significant impact of rich people, and their taxable income, leaving our province now, wouldn't there had been a significant increase of rich foreigners moving here to use our tax rates?

People only seem to use one individual as an example of why higher tax rates don't work, yet don't point to examples of how the lower tax rates brought people here.

Also for clarity, I am avoiding businesses taxes in this point.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Could you not argue that his employees, this province and this country made him rich? I look at it as he was lucky to be able to do business in this part of the world with educated employees, low crime, good infrastructure. ...the list goes on.

Don't forget that much of the money spent on good infrastructure, police force, and public education has come from the billions that Edwards and his companies have paid in provincial/federal tax as well as royalties. It is all related.

[Ryan Coke]

I can tell you that I have the ability to live anywhere in Canada with my job, and the advantageous taxes in Alberta have been one of the big reasons for staying. Now Alberta is still one of the better places in Canada tax wise, but if it continued to get worse I would seriously consider leaving.

I don't say that lightly or as a threat, just that there is a reality that people who have options may start exploring them. So whether people like it or not, you end up with people who pay a lot into the tax pot leaving, which doesn't help anyone in the big picture.

Economics is more complicated than just 'tax people who make more than me, more'.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Alberta remains one of the lowest taxed jurisdictions in North America or Europe.

And yet our highest marginal tax rate is 48.5%.

Maybe someone needs to take a deep look at what our Government is spending our money on if we are handing half of our cash to them every year.

[Fuzz]

A civilized advanced society is expensive, go figure. It's still far lower than it has been in the past. And I'd be curious what the actual amount of tax wealthy people pay on their earnings, after creative accounting(not that their is anything wrong with that-if the system allows it). I'm going to guess that no one actually pays 48.5%. Are there any numbers on this? Average taxes payed by those earning over $1 million or something like that?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

A civilized advanced society is expensive, go figure. It's still far lower than it has been in the past. And I'd be curious what the actual amount of tax wealthy people pay on their earnings, after creative accounting(not that their is anything wrong with that-if the system allows it). I'm going to guess that no one actually pays 48.5%. Are there any numbers on this? Average taxes payed by those earning over $1 million or something like that?

I don't actually want to get into this discussion, but the highest marginal tax rate might be 48.5%, but you don't pay that on every dollar. You pay that on the money over a certain line. At some point though, no matter what tax deductions you can find your're going to pay that amount. Like $24k in RRSPs and things of that nature get used up pretty fast when you're a multi-billionaire.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

I wonder how many individuals moved here during the last 10 years when our taxes were lower.

If there is a significant impact of rich people, and their taxable income, leaving our province now, wouldn't there had been a significant increase of rich foreigners moving here to use our tax rates?

People only seem to use one individual as an example of why higher tax rates don't work, yet don't point to examples of how the lower tax rates brought people here.

Also for clarity, I am avoiding businesses taxes in this point.

Can't give you a number, but I can say that it was significant. Never mind that, like Ryan Coke, I came to Alberta due to the lower taxes and favourable business climate, I will give you a more significant, though still anecdotal, example.

My wife used to recruit internationally for a large firm (still oversees it). Her firm recruited a significant number of people for positions across the country. Her job was to convince some to come to Calgary, which was actually really easy.

Calgary was one of the 3 most attractive cities, along with Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto because people were familiar with it, and Vancouver because it's beautiful. Calgary was the most attractive, usually, because of taxes and the business climate. These weren't oil jobs, they were professionals and upper management. The types of people that can work anywhere.

I can't recall the exact numbers, but I believe the influx to Calgary was something like 30,000 people a year in the mid 2000s. And that wasn't just for oil jobs, it was all kinds of jobs.

A large influx of workers means more housing (construction, as well as many retail spin-offs), infrastructure, retail, small business, etc. etc.

And most importantly, a rapidly growing tax base.

And that's the thing. Having attractive tax rates grows the economy and grows that tax base. Unfortunately, the opposite is also true.

As someone who has spent a significant amount of time in Alberta and in Manitoba, I have seen both sides of this play out for a long time.

There is a reason that Manitobans say that their primary export is good people.

[Enoch Root]

By the way, I wasn't talking about a handful of people, I was talking about 100s. And the number of people she spoke with would have been a multiple of that.

Also, this isn't an example in a vacuum, people in the industry obviously talk, share information, share candidates, etc.

It was a clear, well known, and well established fact that Alberta, and Calgary especially, attracted a tremendous number of people due to the tax advantage and strong business climate.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Locke

And yet our highest marginal tax rate is 48.5%.

Maybe someone needs to take a deep look at what our Government is spending our money on if we are handing half of our cash to them every year.

It's insane not only the amount the government is taking but their running massive deficits while doing it.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I guess I find it tough to get onboard with the notion that we can't tax the rich or they'll just move. So we have to tax the poor and middle-class more because they're not mobile?

I honestly think that just as protectionism is a prisoners dilemma, so is taxation. Just as we address protectionism through free-trade agreements, we should probably have taxation agreements with other jurisdictions.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by SebC

I honestly think that just as protectionism is a prisoners dilemma, so is taxation. Just as we address protectionism through free-trade agreements, we should probably have taxation agreements with other jurisdictions.

Canada could just tax it's citizens based on world wide income rather than residency like the USA does.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Canada could just tax it's citizens based on world wide income rather than residency like the USA does.

How does that work with dual citizenship?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by SebC

How does that work with dual citizenship?

You are expected to file in the US regardless. Canada and the US have a tax agreement to avoid most double taxation but it doesn't cover everything.

The US doesnt recognize TFSAs for instance.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Locke

And yet our highest marginal tax rate is 48.5%.

Maybe someone needs to take a deep look at what our Government is spending our money on if we are handing half of our cash to them every year.

And yet our highest marginal tax rate is far lower than it was 30-50 years ago. Maybe someone needs to look at why the wealthy today are far more resistant to paying taxes than their parents and grandparents were.



(This graph shows U.S. rates, but Canadian tax rates have followed the same trend).