Corey Pronman ranks NHL Prospect Pools

[sureLoss]

Corey Pronman ranks the Flames at #10:
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1553

He said he will go into more detail on each organization at a later date.

[devo22]

upswing, baby! Good to see that, after being ranked between 25 and 30 everywhere for years. Solid basis for a rebuild, we'll probably be top 5 at this point year ...

[Roof-Daddy]

Hmmm, well...adding Monahan, Poirer, Klimchuk, Knight, Cundari, Agostino and Hanowski in the span of a few months would give a shot in the arm to any prospect pool I guess.

Couple that with what appear to be three solid drafts that brought in the likes of Baertschi, Jankowski, Gaudreau, Gillies and Brossoit, and you've got something.....hopefully.

[sureLoss]

I think when you look at what's coming through the pipeline for the Flames perhaps the biggest need is a guy that projects into a #1 dman. They have some decent prospects on defense but realistically their ceiling appears to be 2nd pairing guys.

Yes the organization still probably needs more top end center prospects, but a #1 dman would fill a big hole.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I think when you look at what's coming through the pipeline for the Flames perhaps the biggest need is a guy that projects into a #1 dman. They have some decent prospects on defense but realistically their ceiling appears to be 2nd pairing guys.

Yes the organization still probably needs more top end center prospects, but a #1 dman would fill a big hole.

I agree with this.

It's the main reason I was disappointed we never took a defenseman with the 28th pick. Not that I am complaining about Klimchuk because I quite like that pick too.

[kehatch]

I don't agree with him entirely. I agree with the overall placement. But the Flames do have a fair bit of depth IMO.

C: Horak, Monahan, Jankowski, Knight, Reinhart, Granlund, Bouma, Arnold, Byron, DeBlouw
W: Baertschi, Gaudreau, Klmichuk, Poirier, Agostino, Ferland, Hanowski, Gordon, Harrison
D: Billins, Sieloff, Wotherspoon, Cundari, Breen, Roy, Kilak, Culkin, Ramage, Kanzig, Rafikov, Gilmour
G: Brossoit, Gilles, Ortio

There are a lot of B and C level prospects on the list. What the Flames lack are A level prospects on D and in net. They are also lacking proven NHL ready talent as the bulk of our best prospects have yet to play a game of pro.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Who is Corey Pronman and why does his opinion matter?

[Husky]

Originally Posted by kehatch

G: Brossoit, Gilles, Ortio

There are a lot of B and C level prospects on the list. What the Flames lack are A level prospects on D and in net. They are also lacking proven NHL ready talent as the bulk of our best prospects have yet to play a game of pro.

No clue what Brossoit, Gilles have to do besides already playing like top goalies to be considered high end goalie prospects. If either had been drafted in rounds 1-2 they would be getting more acknowledgement. Right now with their play and promise they should be right up there with other highly ranked goalies for potential.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by New Era

Who is Corey Pronman and why does his opinion matter?

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/news/?author=20

He uses advanced statistics to give his opinion regarding players and prospects.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by New Era

Who is Corey Pronman and why does his opinion matter?

Yeah, stats borrowed from baseball.

I am a fan of something I've borrowed from the baseball scouting world and have adapted to hockey scouting called the 20-80 scale. In short, it is a distinct scouting language, derived originally from using standard deviations to assess talent distributions. To avoid confusing readers, I do not use number grades at all due to the lack of popularity of the scale in hockey circles, however the language I use throughout my reports have a rhyme and reason to which you should be informed about. Here is how I use the 20-80 scale with certain words that you will see in all of my reports:


40 is fringe/replacement level
45 is below average
50 grade is NHL average/average/pro-level/decent
55 is above average
60 is plus/top tier
70 is amongst the NHL's elite/plus-plus
80 is a generational talent but it is never used in this draft preview

which he further tries to confuse in this explanation.

I'm not saying he's full of it, but it's his side of judging talent. He's also big on hockey IQ which seems to be the latest buzz word with the Flames.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1304

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/news/?author=20

He uses advanced statistics to give his opinion regarding players and prospects.

So he's one of these guys.



He's just another guy who has no hockey experience to speak of but publishes a blog where he re-hashes the information freely available. Just another guy who builds the idea that there is a consensus out there on players when none really exists. I would much prefer if these guys prefaced their articles by saying what their experience is in the game of hockey, what level they played to, or even if they can skate. I think it is important to have been through the development grinder to really understand it, and have played the game to understand just how hard it is to get to a certain level, and just how much work goes into getting to the next. Talent isn't the greatest measure of NHL players. They are all great talents. What differentiates them is their character and desire. These bloggers don't get that and will never get that because you can't measure those qualities with statistics or advanced statistics.

[Metro Gnome]

Originally Posted by New Era

So he's one of these guys.



He's just another guy who has no hockey experience to speak of but publishes a blog where he re-hashes the information freely available. Just another guy who builds the idea that there is a consensus out there on players when none really exists. I would much prefer if these guys prefaced their articles by saying what their experience is in the game of hockey, what level they played to, or even if they can skate. I think it is important to have been through the development grinder to really understand it, and have played the game to understand just how hard it is to get to a certain level, and just how much work goes into getting to the next. Talent isn't the greatest measure of NHL players. They are all great talents. What differentiates them is their character and desire. These bloggers don't get that and will never get that because you can't measure those qualities with statistics or advanced statistics.

Well, no, he isn't.

Pronman exhaustively scouts many of the players he writes about. He also talks with numerous NHL scouts behind the scenes to get their qualitative take on each organization's kids as well as draft eligible prospects in general. He has extensive notes on a ton of players as a result. He puts a lot of work and research into his material year round.

[Vulcan]

I remember someone in the Flyers management saying that skillwise many players in the AHL were better than a lot of players in the NHL. I forget what he said differentiated them but character and desire sounds like the reasonable traits.

[cral12]

Originally Posted by Metro Gnome

Well, no, he isn't.

Pronman exhaustively scouts many of the players he writes about. He also talks with numerous NHL scouts behind the scenes to get their qualitative take on each organization's kids as well as draft eligible prospects in general. He has extensive notes on a ton of players as a result. He puts a lot of work and research into his material year round.

I do question some of the stuff Pronman comes up with, but have to agree that he is knowledgeable and puts in a ton of work.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Metro Gnome

Well, no, he isn't.

Pronman exhaustively scouts many of the players he writes about. He also talks with numerous NHL scouts behind the scenes to get their qualitative take on each organization's kids as well as draft eligible prospects in general. He has extensive notes on a ton of players as a result. He puts a lot of work and research into his material year round.

I don't buy this for a minute. Pronman would have to be independently wealthy to view these players. He definitively comments on players from all around the hockey world, players he never would have opportunity to see unless he has unlimited money and a private plane that travels at Mach. It is impossible to view the sheer number of players he comments on, with such certainty.

Seems to me Pronman is a fraud, just like a number of "writers" producing content for a market desperate for anything to feed their delusions. Eklund puts in a lot of work into his site as well and no one in their right mind takes his rumblings seriously. What is the difference between a guy who makes #### up about trades versus a guy who makes #### up about prospects? Both are basing their reports on the work of others and spinning conjecture. Sorry, I don't find guys like this credible, and the more time the mass media gives them the less credibility they have as well.

[PeteMoss]

Hockey Prospectus is affiliated or part of the Baseball Prospectus family of sites. Baseball Prospectus has had multiple guys hired into baseball front offices. Its not some kind of Bleacher Report or home-made site.

That said I have no idea about this guy in particular.

[PeteMoss]

Also how fast a GM or scout can skate would be fairly low on my priority list. A lot of the better GMs in other sports have never played the game at a high level. I'd much rather have a guy who's smart than a guy who gets hired based on his playing career.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't buy this for a minute. Pronman would have to be independently wealthy to view these players. He definitively comments on players from all around the hockey world, players he never would have opportunity to see unless he has unlimited money and a private plane that travels at Mach. It is impossible to view the sheer number of players he comments on, with such certainty.

Seems to me Pronman is a fraud, just like a number of "writers" producing content for a market desperate for anything to feed their delusions. Eklund puts in a lot of work into his site as well and no one in their right mind takes his rumblings seriously. What is the difference between a guy who makes #### up about trades versus a guy who makes #### up about prospects? Both are basing their reports on the work of others and spinning conjecture. Sorry, I don't find guys like this credible, and the more time the mass media gives them the less credibility they have as well.

If you don't like Eklund then get the eff out of the Eklund thread. If you don't like Pronman then get the eff out of the Pronman thread. You really have so much time you have nothing better to do then troll a thread you aren't interested in?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by kehatch

If you don't like Eklund then get the eff out of the Eklund thread. If you don't like Pronman then get the eff out of the Pronman thread. You really have so much time you have nothing better to do then troll a thread you aren't interested in?

Actually, I'm very interested it. I'm curious who these people are and how credible their information is. It would explain the groupthink that develops so quickly around players the vast majority of people have never seen. I want to know who the trusted sources of information are, because it is very important to listen to the people who have access to information and marginalized those who do nothing but spin the work of others into something that others take as a verified source of quality information. Where do you get your information from when you want specific knowledge? From the guy who has played the game to a high level and has worked in the industry for an extended period of time, or from a guy who read the Coles Notes version of a draft guide? I think I know the answer, based on the vitriolic response and defense of The Eklunds. I just want to know whether I'm dealing with a primary source, a secondary source, or a plagiarist. And yes, it does matter.

[TurdFerguson]

Originally Posted by New Era

Who is Corey Pronman and why does his opinion matter?

Jeeze, are you always so arrogant? "Why does his opinon matter"...says the message board poster. ha

That said, that is all he is putting out, his opinion. He is not selling it, or preaching it as gospel. The guy is clearly has a passion for the game at the prospect level and has some insight he is willing to share. As with every 'list' or draft guide that is made, people will disagree with assessments and rankings but his perspective is an interesting one to take into account for no other reason then his commitment to giving it on such a wide swath of prospects. As with anyone else posting assessments of players he has is full of tendencies and presumable bias (how could he not be) but I'm not sure that is a bad thing if you understand it. He readily admits when he doesnt know much or has not personally seen a prospect. Further, its pretty clear to me that he relies heavily on scouting reports from other scouts (esp internationally) - that's fine with me as long as he discloses it, which I feel he does.

Generally, I think he puts out good quality stuff and is willing to stand behind and discuss his opinions if you engage him. That's worth the price I pay to read it, anyway.