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Old 09-16-2021, 01:01 PM   #241
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What is it that makes you hesitant?



Is it the stroke risks? Those have been explained to be worse with covid.
Is it that you think you are protected? Protection is better with a vaccine.


What, specifically, is the hesitancy? Have you make a pluses and minuses list of getting or not getting it? It's tough for us to understand, because the logic of your situation makes it impossible to select your postilion. Plus most of us are kinda pissed off right now, if you haven't noticed...
I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:09 PM   #242
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I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.
First off, it's really weird your doctor recommended waiting 6 months. The typical recommendation is after your infection is cleared:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...cines/faq.html

Unless your doctor has some specific concerns related to your health, he appears to be wrong on that, so I wouldn't delay.

As to the long term effects, well covid itself has those, which should be concerning. Getting re-infected could still subject you to those. But in general, there is no mechanism by which the vaccine works where you would expect any, and most experts and analysis don't expect to see any:

https://immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questio...how-do-we-know

It's a fear that is unfounded in reality. I get it, but it's something you just have to accept as true. I mane, you could be fearful of the vaccine causing you to grow a third arm, but if you are honest with yourself, it's not a reasonable fear.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:21 PM   #243
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I gotta give props to DK for sticking it out.

He is at least open to the conversation.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:27 PM   #244
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To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.
The problem is that you're basing your decision not to get the vaccine off of the same value of information that suggests you should get the vaccine, and calling it insufficient. Let's take the below as an example:

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So why have we not been vaccinated? Well recent studies have shown that natural immunity is everybody as good if not better than the vaccines. I do understand that these are early studies, but everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses would indicate that natural immunity is likely.

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated. While it is entirely possible that it is merely a coincidence, there are reports of side effects from the vaccines. So why would I risk potential serious side effects for a medical procedure, that after having the virus already, seems unnecessary?
Early studies and hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine put into arms suggest there are no major side effects that occur with any regularity. That much we know. And, like everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses, everything we know about side effects since we've been studying vaccines tells us the emergence of long-term side effects 1 year+ is basically non-existent.

So if that information is good enough for you in terms of natural immunity, why isn't it good enough for a vaccine? Especially considering the recommendations even with the information we have about natural immunity is to get vaccinated even if you've had COVID?

You recognize how selective and narrow your reasoning is, right? And if you do, shouldn't that make you question just how reasonable you're being? You're ignoring the recommendations of the majority of the medical and science community and ignoring what we historically know about vaccines and everything we know thus far about these vaccines, in favour of a select portion of information from one study. That doesn't seem somewhat insane to you, as a reasonable and logical person?

You asked why you would risk potential serious side effects from a medical procedure that seems unnecessary. It's fair to ask why you would risk potentially far greater side effects from contracting a disease, when that risk is much higher even with natural immunity?

Based on the study you provided (flaws and all, but lets say that study is truly representative, though we know it's likely overly favourable to non-vaccinated but infected individuals), your chance of ending up in the hospital as a non-vaccinated, COVID immune person is roughly 1/8,100. Your chance of ending up in the hospital from a COVID vaccine is roughly 1/13,500 (again, also simply based on self reporting and not cases confirmed to vaccine related). And of course, getting the vaccine would reduce your chances even more.

So why are you taking the bigger risk?
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:31 PM   #245
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DK doesn’t think they are part of the problem… but I disagree for one specific reason. Discussing the “3 strokes” you know in any context of the vaccine is exactly part of the problem. Just floating it out there, as if it has any basis. I assume you’ve told people this in person too. This exact type of thing is why some people are vaccine hesitant. Maybe not your story specifically, but people doing that. Enlarged testicles, multiple instances of stroke, magnetization … Over and over. It’s not acceptable in my opinion. It’s about the only thing they posted that ticked me off.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:07 PM   #246
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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go get vaccinated.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:25 PM   #247
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He is at least open to the conversation.
Is he?

I guess I read his posts in a different tone.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:30 PM   #248
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I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainA...comments_that/

Matthew got covid a 2nd time...
Matthew's mother and grandmother caught covid from Matthew...
Matthew is really sick and feels like a fool for not getting vaccinated...
Matthew feels horrible he exposed his loved ones...
Matthew's mother and grandmother were vaccinated... and are now symptom free...
Matthew is still sick and feeling like a fool.

Don't end up like Matthew!
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:32 PM   #249
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First off, it's really weird your doctor recommended waiting 6 months. The typical recommendation is after your infection is cleared:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...cines/faq.html

Unless your doctor has some specific concerns related to your health, he appears to be wrong on that, so I wouldn't delay.

As to the long term effects, well covid itself has those, which should be concerning. Getting re-infected could still subject you to those. But in general, there is no mechanism by which the vaccine works where you would expect any, and most experts and analysis don't expect to see any:

https://immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questio...how-do-we-know

It's a fear that is unfounded in reality. I get it, but it's something you just have to accept as true. I mane, you could be fearful of the vaccine causing you to grow a third arm, but if you are honest with yourself, it's not a reasonable fear.
Thank you for posting that. When I have a moment tonight I'll go through the link provided.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:42 PM   #250
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Thank you for posting that. When I have a moment tonight I'll go through the link provided.
Just remember, all health interventions are based on risk/benefit; almost nothing is risk-free, but that risk should be weighed against the benefit. Will your benefit of being vaccinated be the same as someone who never had COVID? No, not even close. However, the risk of serious complications from being vaccinated is so minimal, that even in the face of what you might see as a relatively marginal benefit, it's a no brainer, which is why every health authority recommends still getting vaccinated after recovering. This isn't like measles or something, where if you get it you're immune for life and we have mountains of evidence about the longevity of immunity. In that situation, getting vaccinated after infection might not make sense. But that's not the case with COVID.

And in terms of vaccine/immunity passports, keep in mind that a lot of places that accept a recovery in lieu of vaccination have a time limit of 6 months on that. So even if that was policy in Alberta/Canada, if you were infected in April you'd already be getting close to the end of that and would still need to be vaccinated to be exempt from restrictions.
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:47 PM   #251
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The problem is that you're basing your decision not to get the vaccine off of the same value of information that suggests you should get the vaccine, and calling it insufficient. Let's take the below as an example:



Early studies and hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine put into arms suggest there are no major side effects that occur with any regularity. That much we know. And, like everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses, everything we know about side effects since we've been studying vaccines tells us the emergence of long-term side effects 1 year+ is basically non-existent.

So if that information is good enough for you in terms of natural immunity, why isn't it good enough for a vaccine? Especially considering the recommendations even with the information we have about natural immunity is to get vaccinated even if you've had COVID?

You recognize how selective and narrow your reasoning is, right? And if you do, shouldn't that make you question just how reasonable you're being? You're ignoring the recommendations of the majority of the medical and science community and ignoring what we historically know about vaccines and everything we know thus far about these vaccines, in favour of a select portion of information from one study. That doesn't seem somewhat insane to you, as a reasonable and logical person?

You asked why you would risk potential serious side effects from a medical procedure that seems unnecessary. It's fair to ask why you would risk potentially far greater side effects from contracting a disease, when that risk is much higher even with natural immunity?

Based on the study you provided (flaws and all, but lets say that study is truly representative, though we know it's likely overly favourable to non-vaccinated but infected individuals), your chance of ending up in the hospital as a non-vaccinated, COVID immune person is roughly 1/8,100. Your chance of ending up in the hospital from a COVID vaccine is roughly 1/13,500 (again, also simply based on self reporting and not cases confirmed to vaccine related). And of course, getting the vaccine would reduce your chances even more.

So why are you taking the bigger risk?
While the reasoning you provided is excellent, it also implies that there is zero chance of catching covid if I get vaccinated which is very clearly not the case.

Those same risks that you point out for not being vaccinated are present if you're vaccinated as well.

I guess my hang up in all this is, why is natural immunity not as good as a vaccine. It's been fine for chicken pox and numerous other diseases throughout history, so why not now?
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Old 09-16-2021, 02:56 PM   #252
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Hey DK, how are your vitamin levels?
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:01 PM   #253
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While the reasoning you provided is excellent, it also implies that there is zero chance of catching covid if I get vaccinated which is very clearly not the case.

Those same risks that you point out for not being vaccinated are present if you're vaccinated as well.

I guess my hang up in all this is, why is natural immunity not as good as a vaccine. It's been fine for chicken pox and numerous other diseases throughout history, so why not now?
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but having chickenpox without being vaccinated increases your risk of shingles later in life. Decreased risk of shingles if you were vaccinated for chickenpox.
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:16 PM   #254
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I guess my hang up in all this is, why is natural immunity not as good as a vaccine. It's been fine for chicken pox and numerous other diseases throughout history, so why not now?
Now I'm no expert (and don't have a Masters), but I'm pretty sure not all things are created equal in terms of severity, infection rates, and ability to mutate into different strains/variants.

If you get Covid early on, would you still expect to have natural immunity to a new strain/variant in the future? Would you accept a booster vaccine shot that would then cover you for the new strain or would you still rely on the immunity you built up to the original strain?

Do you ever get a yearly flu shot?
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:23 PM   #255
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Good post Double F

It's really ####ing hard not to be upset.

But we do need to try harder. Because no argument is won by berating someone. You will NEVER change someone's mind through shame or degradation.

You will only ever change it by understanding and then getting them to ask themselves the right questions and questioning their own mindset. you can't do that with aggression.

Lessons I keep trying to learn every day.
Thanks.

It's way too easy to get ticked off and Nike swoosh a "Just do it" response.

Believe me, I totally get how hard it is to not get upset.

If you do decide to walk the harder path. I wish you best of luck and lots of will power. For me, it was like asking myself to get out of the hot tub and jump into a frozen river with absolutely no expectation of any semblance of reward or success.

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But the thing is I honestly don't believe he came here to learn or exchange ideas. As I said I think he is here to "Make a Point" and knowing 3 people that got strokes from the vaccination is well hard to believe, but maybe he is being truthful.
This comment oddly feels like a parallel to the situation. The odds someone with certain types of opinions and are genuinely open to changing their mind often is exponentially low. I agree. For me I perceived he was genuine. At face value, the odds the other individual/stranger is genuine and not trolling is possibly excruciatingly low. But it's possible to be wrong and he is actually being genuine. Parallel to this I think DK thinks the same way but for a different topic. The odds of death or some debilitating effect from the vaccination is exponentially low, but it's still a possibility to be there.

I think there's an extra facet which also ties into something Pepsi said.

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*snip*

So why are you taking the bigger risk?
In all honesty, I keep thinking this concept must be some form or piece of the key towards deciphering some of the disconnect between the two opposing opinions. The word bigger risk is right there for all to see, but it's as if there's many instances of people being on the same page, but different paragraph.

It seems that many who haven't fully vaccinated somehow see the action of a vaccination as a forced event. No matter how low the risk, it's triggered up front. However, by delaying or refusing the vaccination, the risk is random, but still can be delayed to a later time. Most of us might look at something and consider it a nothing concern without much of a second thought, but certain others may look at it and consider there to be some type of concern that holds back a decision until resolved. To the individual in this situation, it's not something nothing. It's a bit more major. Perhaps like someone in a wheel chair looking at stairs vs the rest of us walk right up the stairs multiple at a time without really thinking about it.

To have a constructive conversation, it might be important to go step by step and understand what that snag is, instead of assuming that interpretation of all steps are the same for everyone.

Metaphorically, DK might be looking at a set of stairs from a wheel chair perspective. The stairs/risk he is contemplating is far greater than any of us realize if we do not realize he is in that situation/scenario. A face value, he in theory could hop out of the chair and crawl to the top, but then he'd be in a new type of unresolved situation/concern because the wheelchair is at the bottom of the stairs, away from where he has ended up.

I really don't know what is going on in DK's mind and likely we cannot broad brush all the reasonings that many different people use to not vaccinate. But perhaps if we can better understand the angle and circumstances for the individual's opinion, we can more easily realize how to help the individual to make a decision by contemplating good logical ideas to effectively overcome their barrier.
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:39 PM   #256
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I genuinely have appreciated the discussion here this afternoon. Double F thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Given the tone of many around here there will be few that believe what I'm about to say, but I do wish I could simply walk into a clinic and get my vaccine I do. So many things would be easier, if I could just do that.

I also clearly can't articulate my reservations or at least justify it.

Thanks again for those who took the time to respond with facts and gentleness.
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:42 PM   #257
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I genuinely have appreciated the discussion here this afternoon. Double F thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Given the tone of many around here there will be few that believe what I'm about to say, but I do wish I could simply walk into a clinic and get my vaccine I do. So many things would be easier, if I could just do that.

I also clearly can't articulate my reservations or at least justify it.

Thanks again for those who took the time to respond with facts and gentleness.
I've got a solution for you tomorrow. Book an appointment, get day drunk to reduce inhibitions, get vaccinated. No regrets. YOLO to vaccine freedom!
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:43 PM   #258
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but I do wish I could simply walk into a clinic and get my vaccine I do. So many things would be easier, if I could just do that
But you can literally do just that...
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:46 PM   #259
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I genuinely have appreciated the discussion here this afternoon. Double F thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Given the tone of many around here there will be few that believe what I'm about to say, but I do wish I could simply walk into a clinic and get my vaccine I do. So many things would be easier, if I could just do that.

I also clearly can't articulate my reservations or at least justify it.

Thanks again for those who took the time to respond with facts and gentleness.
I have a friend who is in hospital, at one point in the ICU. He can't walk unassisted, and can't really have a conversation without getting winded. It's not fun if you wind up there.
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Looks like you'll need one long before I will. May I suggest deflection king?
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Old 09-16-2021, 03:50 PM   #260
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But you can literally do just that...
And have been able to since June

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca...Page15943.aspx


Clinics
https://www.albertahealthservices.ca...95.aspx#walkin

Pharmacies
https://www.ab.bluecross.ca/news/cov...nformation.php
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