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Old 05-24-2021, 08:55 PM   #221
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I'm one of the least conspiracy-prone people around, but it's awfully suspicious that the virus got a foothold in the precise city where China's top virology lab is. Occam's Razor.
Yeah, that one’s tough to ignore.

So, bigger question.

If it was man made, and if it was released on purpose, then what?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.busi...d-2020-6%3famp

Here’s something less conspiratorial. Apparently it would be really obvious if the Virus had been modified in any way, and we also don’t know enough about viruses to just jury rig them to be more dangerous.

I feel better, and not just because I got vaccinated last week.
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Old 05-24-2021, 09:39 PM   #222
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This thread still exists with this title?

Embarrassing af.
Is there something wrong with the title?
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:54 AM   #223
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Is there something wrong with the title?
iTs rAcIsT !!!!!!
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Old 05-25-2021, 06:44 AM   #224
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And really, I'm not sure why we're trying so damn hard to find a an origin story for something that really doesn't require one. New pathogens emerge literally all the time
Because when humanity doesn’t learn from it’s mistakes it’s bound to repeat them.

Knowing what went wrong can help make sure a similar event doesn’t happen in the future. Did someone drop a test tube, was someone unqualified handling the virus, was there a lack of funding around equipment or lab safety?

I’ll read your link.
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:07 AM   #225
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Because when humanity doesn’t learn from it’s mistakes it’s bound to repeat them.

Knowing what went wrong can help make sure a similar event doesn’t happen in the future. Did someone drop a test tube, was someone unqualified handling the virus, was there a lack of funding around equipment or lab safety?

I’ll read your link.

The facility in Wuhan is a BSL4 which has the same safety protocols as elsewhere. I believe there were non Chinese scientists in the lab as well, and protocols for these labs I believe are pretty standard.

The reason is say it doesn't matter, it's that this certainly isn't a lab created virus. While we don't have the exact missing link coronavirus this evolved from, there's literally millions of different strains of the coronavirus in mammals all over the globe and this is how they evolve. This was a naturally occurring virus waiting for a human host, so shouldn't our efforts be directed at dealing with emerging zoonotic pathogens? Strengthening lab protocols isn't going to stop the next pandemic as this is exactly how the next one will come anyways. If it escaped from a lab or simply found a human host from it's origin, what we need to do is the same: be vigilant, share info, invest in public health
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:26 AM   #226
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The facility in Wuhan is a BSL4 which has the same safety protocols as elsewhere. I believe there were non Chinese scientists in the lab as well, and protocols for these labs I believe are pretty standard.

The reason is say it doesn't matter, it's that this certainly isn't a lab created virus. While we don't have the exact missing link coronavirus this evolved from, there's literally millions of different strains of the coronavirus in mammals all over the globe and this is how they evolve. This was a naturally occurring virus waiting for a human host, so shouldn't our efforts be directed at dealing with emerging zoonotic pathogens? Strengthening lab protocols isn't going to stop the next pandemic as this is exactly how the next one will come anyways. If it escaped from a lab or simply found a human host from it's origin, what we need to do is the same: be vigilant, share info, invest in public health
There's actually plenty of evidence now that this was a lab leak. If you like science, this is a really good article from the former science editor of the New York Times that gets into a lot of technical details, including evolutionary links: https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-...-box-at-wuhan/

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In the case of SARS1, researchers have documented the successive changes in its spike protein as the virus evolved step by step into a dangerous pathogen. After it had gotten from bats into civets, there were six further changes in its spike protein before it became a mild pathogen in people. After a further 14 changes, the virus was much better adapted to humans, and with a further four, the epidemic took off.

But when you look for the fingerprints of a similar transition in SARS2, a strange surprise awaits. The virus has changed hardly at all, at least until recently. From its very first appearance, it was well adapted to human cells. Researchers led by Alina Chan of the Broad Institute compared SARS2 with late stage SARS1, which by then was well adapted to human cells, and found that the two viruses were similarly well adapted. “By the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV,” they wrote.

Even those who think lab origin unlikely agree that SARS2 genomes are remarkably uniform. Baric writes that “early strains identified in Wuhan, China, showed limited genetic diversity, which suggests that the virus may have been introduced from a single source.”

A single source would of course be compatible with lab escape, less so with the massive variation and selection which is evolution’s hallmark way of doing business.

The uniform structure of SARS2 genomes gives no hint of any passage through an intermediate animal host, and no such host has been identified in nature.

Proponents of natural emergence suggest that SARS2 incubated in a yet-to-be found human population before gaining its special properties. Or that it jumped to a host animal outside China.

All these conjectures are possible, but strained. Proponents of a lab leak have a simpler explanation. SARS2 was adapted to human cells from the start because it was grown in humanized mice or in lab cultures of human cells, just as described in Daszak’s grant proposal. Its genome shows little diversity because the hallmark of lab cultures is uniformity.
And it's imperative that this be investigated, because this research is happening across the world. We've had a pandemic caused by reckless research, the world needs to act to prevent another one.
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:51 AM   #227
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Maybe I am missing the obvious - what would be the motivation for leaking a virus that would affect everyone worldwide (including China)?
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Old 05-25-2021, 09:09 AM   #228
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And it's imperative that this be investigated, because this research is happening across the world. We've had a pandemic caused by reckless research, the world needs to act to prevent another one.
I certainly agree, and we know that is coming.

I guess going back to your earlier question about why it isn’t being discussed as much as you’d like right now, that’s because we’re still trying to get out of the ####. Once we’re out of the ####, we damn we’ll figure out where it came from. But at the moment, it’s not at all a priority.
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Old 05-25-2021, 09:10 AM   #229
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iTs rAcIsT !!!!!!
Let's not pretend like it isn't, or that there wasn't some of that intent in the title.
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Old 05-25-2021, 09:12 AM   #230
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The case isn't that it was an intentional leak, it's that it was accidental. Incompetence, not malice as is usually the explanation for most things, from this to Chernobyl and on through history. There have been multiple close call accidents at all these labs across the world, that's why it's so important the international community addresses this problem. It's taken on an extra importance now because of the proliferation of research that purposefully manipulates natural viruses to make them more infectious to humans.
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Old 05-25-2021, 10:53 AM   #231
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Just for the record i don’t believe the virus was released intentionally. There’s no credible evidence to support that (at least not right now). However i do think it may have been human error that may have caused a leak.

I think we do need to know what happened so we can minimize the chance of it happening again.

It seems like a strange coincidence that the virus originated in the same place that has a virology lab.

The best way to shut conspiracists up is to be open and transparent. There’s nothing that fuels conspiracies more than lies and cover ups.

Maybe the test tube rolled off the table and cracked when the lab tech was reaching for his sandwich haha.
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Old 05-25-2021, 11:29 AM   #232
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The facility in Wuhan is a BSL4 which has the same safety protocols as elsewhere. I believe there were non Chinese scientists in the lab as well, and protocols for these labs I believe are pretty standard.

The reason is say it doesn't matter, it's that this certainly isn't a lab created virus. While we don't have the exact missing link coronavirus this evolved from, there's literally millions of different strains of the coronavirus in mammals all over the globe and this is how they evolve. This was a naturally occurring virus waiting for a human host, so shouldn't our efforts be directed at dealing with emerging zoonotic pathogens? Strengthening lab protocols isn't going to stop the next pandemic as this is exactly how the next one will come anyways. If it escaped from a lab or simply found a human host from it's origin, what we need to do is the same: be vigilant, share info, invest in public health

It's also important that nations aren't experimenting on deadly viruses and then covering it up. If that is what occurred, that certainly contributes to spread and the frequency of these outbreaks.

I agree that there is always a risk. But if you have evidence of nations plucking these viruses from the forest, allowing them to spread into the population, and then allowing those populations to get on planes travelling all over the world, that's certainly something worth looking into.

Either way, assuming this isn't a lab leak, there's already plenty of evidence to point towards a cover up in the early stages.

Art of being vigilant and sharing info needs to include getting regimes like China in line with whatever protocols get put into place.
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Old 05-25-2021, 11:40 AM   #233
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Part of the problem now is that China has made minimal effort to help with discovering the true origin of the virus. Refusing to let investigators in and scrubbing all data after finally granting access does nothing to help their case and 100% increases suspicion (warranted or not)
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:10 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
This thread still exists with this title?

Embarrassing af.
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Let's not pretend like it isn't, or that there wasn't some of that intent in the title.
I'm going to call this out.

Viruses of note have historically been linked to their origin.

We have the british variant, the south africa variant, the brazil variant, the indian variant all named by their first known origin. Each used interchangeably today by the media.

You have viruses identified by their origin as part of their identification like MERS-CoV (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome).

The 1918 flu is still called the spanish flu today despite being knowingly misidentified.

But Wuhan (or chinese) coronavirus? That is racist.

Now quite obviously, a deadly new virus from a specific region will cause ostracism against people from that region, the main justification for not calling it by origin name.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/us/di...rnd/index.html

Even CNN constantly used the term "Wuhan virus", it stopped pretty much as soon as Trump started using it as well as the term "china virus", with CNN needing a moral high ground to stand on. Here's several article "pre-Trump" quote (note their dates, and when Trump did his China virus remark) and they made an article to pat themselves on the back for identifying and fixing their moral compass.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/05/healt...ort/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/world...ntl/index.html

Quote:
A visual guide to the Wuhan coronavirus
A visual guide to the Wuhan coronavirus indeed.

Yet the media, including CNN today despite their justice warrior stance last year, have completely forgotten their moral high ground and have no problem naming the variants by their origin today.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/14/healt...gbr/index.html

Politics has played way too much of a hand with covid. This faux outrage crap needs to be turfed, it was a totally political shift.

The title was perfectly fine...until Trump used the term.

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Old 05-25-2021, 12:40 PM   #235
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It hasn't been fine since 2015 when the decision was made not to name viruses after their origin:
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/us/di...rnd/index.html
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:53 PM   #236
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So is this thread now about the origin of all coronaviruses or COVID 19? Thread title is misleading and should be changed.
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:29 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
It hasn't been fine since 2015 when the decision was made not to name viruses after their origin:
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/us/di...rnd/index.html
I have no problem tying this virus to China since they refuse to give transparency into the origins of it, likely because it did come from a lab instead of a bat
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:40 PM   #238
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I'm going to call this out.

Viruses of note have historically been linked to their origin.

We have the british variant, the south africa variant, the brazil variant, the indian variant all named by their first known origin. Each used interchangeably today by the media.

You have viruses identified by their origin as part of their identification like MERS-CoV (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome).

The 1918 flu is still called the spanish flu today despite being knowingly misidentified.

But Wuhan (or chinese) coronavirus? That is racist.

Now quite obviously, a deadly new virus from a specific region will cause ostracism against people from that region, the main justification for not calling it by origin name.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/us/di...rnd/index.html

Even CNN constantly used the term "Wuhan virus", it stopped pretty much as soon as Trump started using it as well as the term "china virus", with CNN needing a moral high ground to stand on. Here's several article "pre-Trump" quote (note their dates, and when Trump did his China virus remark) and they made an article to pat themselves on the back for identifying and fixing their moral compass.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/05/healt...ort/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/world...ntl/index.html



A visual guide to the Wuhan coronavirus indeed.

Yet the media, including CNN today despite their justice warrior stance last year, have completely forgotten their moral high ground and have no problem naming the variants by their origin today.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/14/healt...gbr/index.html

Politics has played way too much of a hand with covid. This faux outrage crap needs to be turfed, it was a totally political shift.

The title was perfectly fine...until Trump used the term.
The title was never perfectly fine and just because talking heads in the media used and continue to use it, doesn't mean it's how things should continue.

Here is guidance from WHO on naming viruses:

Quote:
The use of names such as ‘swine flu’ and ‘Middle East Respiratory Syndrome’ has had unintended negative impacts by stigmatizing certain communities or economic sectors,” says Dr Keiji Fukuda, Assistant Director-General for Health Security, WHO. “This may seem like a trivial issue to some, but disease names really do matter to the people who are directly affected. We’ve seen certain disease names provoke a backlash against members of particular religious or ethnic communities, create unjustified barriers to travel, commerce and trade, and trigger needless slaughtering of food animals. This can have serious consequences for peoples’ lives and livelihoods.”
https://www.who.int/news/item/08-05-...tious-diseases

Edit: Beaten by Fuzz, though it's a different link
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:03 PM   #239
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It hasn't been fine since 2015 when the decision was made not to name viruses after their origin:
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/us/di...rnd/index.html
I've linked the CNN article you linked already as part of my argument. And the WHO's decision was specifically on identifying the virus's name completely based on origin to avoid stigmatism. Ebola, West Nile and Zika are other examples of origin based names. And I did state historically, the change is very recent.

Ultimately, the name used became an issue addressed by the media (and they used the origin consistently regardless of the WHO recommendation) in March 2020 only once Trump said it and the media tried to steer itself away from him, suddenly having self declared an epiphany.

Google link for hundreds of "Wuhan coronavirus" news articles from predominant MSM sources prior to Trump's "China virus" comment.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22w...2F2020&tbm=nws

Quote:
More than 2,100 people have died from the Wuhan coronavirus,
Quote:
Canada has confirmed its first Wuhan coronavirus case in Toronto
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/healt...-bn/index.html

Quote:
Wuhan coronavirus is not yet a public health emergency of international concern, WHO says
Quote:
CNN goes to ground zero of Wuhan coronavirus outbreak in China 02:45
(CNN)The Wuhan coronavirus does not yet constitute a public health emergency of international concern, the World Health Organization announced Thursday.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/china...cli/index.html

Quote:
The memory of SARS looms over the Wuhan virus. Here's how the outbreaks compare
Again, the media shift on the term was purely of political convenience, and not because of some social conscience shift.

Wuhan coronavirus as a name is just as fine as identifying B.1.1.7 as the british variant. Someone calling it the Wuhan coronavirus in itself based is not racist, and the faux outrage on a name that identifies its origin that was perfectly acceptable in Feb 2020 but not March 2020 (yet variants can still be sourced to its origin) is really what is embarrassing.

BTW, the WHO itself identified and published the term "Wuhan coronavirus" on its website. It was perfectly fine to use Jan 18 2020 as part of diagnostic detection protocol.

https://www.who.int/nepal/activities.../protocol-v2-1

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Diagnostic detection of Wuhan coronavirus 2019 by real-time RT-PCR – Charité, Berlin Germany (pdf)
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:12 PM   #240
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We see the some media refer to these as 'the Covid variant first discovered in xxxxxxxx'
Is this acceptable?
The variant first discovered in India instead of the India variant?
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