COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

You don't get it.

Infection from COVID by the time the vaccines came around was as foregone conclusion. Most of us never had a choice there, especially if we couldn't sit around at home and play twiddle twaddle all day long.

But yeah, break it down to a 'couple' people.

It absolutely was not. Where do you get this idea from? And if as you day it was a foregone conclusion, how do you pin the heart issues on the vaccine and not the virus? Why does everyone speaking against the vaccine know multiple people who have diagnosed vaccine injuries, yet most normal people know no one? Do vaccine injuries only occur in people speaking against vaccines, or is it perhaps becuase you want to see something to prove a point, so you claim it?

As to the rest of it, my wife and I wear N95 masks to work, she rides the bus 3 times a week. No covid for either of us. We just got back from a 2 week vacation, wearing masks on planes, ferries and in stores. There is a choice, it's just that most people have made the riskier one.

[Azure]

Its sad that you have such a hard time accepting that there are people that have had an adverse reaction to the vaccine, and that most of those people were in a demographic of the population who were not at risk to begin with.

Your reaction perfectly explains why there are people who previously were pro-vaccine, and likely still are for those people that are at risk, but now question the dogmatic insistence that every single person get vaccinated regardless of their age, risk factor, health conditions, etc.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It absolutely was not. Where do you get this idea from? And if as you day it was a foregone conclusion, how do you pin the heart issues on the vaccine and not the virus? Why does everyone speaking against the vaccine know multiple people who have diagnosed vaccine injuries, yet most normal people know no one? Do vaccine injuries only occur in people speaking against vaccines, or is it perhaps becuase you want to see something to prove a point, so you claim it?

As to the rest of it, my wife and I wear N95 masks to work, she rides the bus 3 times a week. No covid for either of us. We just got back from a 2 week vacation, wearing masks on planes, ferries and in stores. There is a choice, it's just that most people have made the riskier one.

I have no dog in this fight, but that kind of statement isn't cool. Maybe, and hear me out, it's the other way around. Maybe, just maybe, people speaking out against vaccines were adversely affected by the vaccine. Crazy, I know.

I'm all vaxxed up. Likely would do it again in retrospect, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to understand how there will be more caution should we have to go through that again. Oh and to add, I didn't really understand or agree with why individuals chose not to get vaccinated at the time. Probably used "stupid" as a descriptor. I wouldn't do that again in hindsight.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its sad that you have such a hard time accepting that there are people that have had an adverse reaction to the vaccine, and that most of those people were in a demographic of the population who were not at risk to begin with.

Your reaction perfectly explains why there are people who previously were pro-vaccine, and likely still are for those people that are at risk, but now question the dogmatic insistence that every single person get vaccinated regardless of their age, risk factor, health conditions, etc.

I'm not doubting that, I'm saying with the data that exists, that it seems statistically improbable that so many people who are against the vaccine program as deployed are also the ones who know so many people who have adverse issues, yet "normal"(I guess it was the wrong word? - regular, typical, not fighting the science?) people don't ever seem to know anyone.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I have no dog in this fight, but that kind of statement isn't cool. Maybe, and hear me out, it's the other way around. Maybe, just maybe, people speaking out against vaccines were adversely affected by the vaccine. Crazy, I know.

I'm all vaxxed up. Likely would do it again in retrospect, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to understand how there will be more caution should we have to go through that again. Oh and to add, I didn't really understand or agree with why individuals chose not to get vaccinated at the time. Probably used "stupid" as a descriptor. I wouldn't do that again in hindsight.

I didn't mean it in a derogatory way...I just meant typical people who aren't still fighting against "the narrative". Wrong word.

[shotinthebacklund]

Fuzz, Given your fierce aversion to anyone who even questions the vaccine, have you ever thought it could possibly be people are hesitant to share this information with you?

[shotinthebacklund]

Shotinback, that is really sad that you are having these heath experiences regardless of their causes.

If the vaccine is causing the consequences you faced it will be found. Even if the vaccine is found to have caused these things you still made the right decision to be vaccinated.

The risks of taking the vaccine were lower than the risks of getting Covid without the vaccine. You are not to blame if you rolled unlucky on the vaccine lottery. You still reduced your overall risk.

It’s funny people like Ikaris act like anything has changed. The best decision available at the time was to vaccinate. The math overwhelming supported it. Data available at that time was not suppressed.

I strongly disagree, The best decision for me was to never be vaccinated. I had just finished a delta infection, I should never had been advised to be vaccinated so quickly. There was no health data even tested on impacts of vaccination after infection and never should have been advised. Period.

The second shot. Given my reaction to the first dose, I should never have been advised to receive the second dose, and definitely at the timeline as was advised at the time.

I was a healthy male in my early thirties with no pre existing conditions.

my wife, the same, and still was advised to receive her booster.

My sister in law, the same.

We were coerced and pressured, By government, by MD's, by peers.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Just to put that study's numbers in context: that puts the excess myocarditis cases from the vaccines in U40 men at around 15 (Pfizer) and 110 (Moderna) per million over a 2-dose series. So that's between 1 in 9,000 and 1 in 66,000. That's not particularly high; it's about on par with the odds that a 30 year old has of dropping dead in the next 7 days.

1 in 66,000 and yet people apparently know handfuls of friends and relatives with vaccine injuries.

Must be cool knowing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people personally. Makes you feel likely that these popular folks grace us with their presence and still find the time to talk to strangers they don’t know.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not doubting that, I'm saying with the data that exists, that it seems statistically improbable that so many people who are against the vaccine program as deployed are also the ones who know so many people who have adverse issues, yet "normal"(I guess it was the wrong word? - regular, typical, not fighting the science?) people don't ever seem to know anyone.

Or perhaps vaccine manufacturers who saw their profits rise to absolutely staggering levels, were making sure they controlled the 'testing' so that the adverse effects were not brought to the forefront. In 2023 they finally said 'oh we should test that more if its a problem.'

Surely that wouldn't be impossible to imagine given that Pfizer, as one of the vaccine manufacturers is the same company that has paid the largest fine in history among pharmaceutical companies for illegally promoting a drug that ended up killing people with 'false marketing claims', and in the ruling they called them a 'repeat offender.' Like the Matt Cooke of the pharmaceutical world.

Nor would it be impossible given how they are also breaking records in how much they spend on lobbying each year.

Always amazes me how people lap up what the drug companies say.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

I strongly disagree, The best decision for me was to never be vaccinated. I had just finished a delta infection, I should never had been advised to be vaccinated so quickly. There was no health data even tested on impacts of vaccination after infection and never should have been advised. Period.

The second shot. Given my reaction to the first dose, I should never have been advised to receive the second dose, and definitely at the timeline as was advised at the time.

I was a healthy male in my early thirties with no pre existing conditions.

my wife, the same, and still was advised to receive her booster.

My sister in law, the same.

We were coerced and pressured, By government, by MD's, by peers.

There was absolutely pressure to get vaccinated, and its shameful how the public, the media and health officials acted.

I have a friend who caught COVID right when vaccinations started to become available, and he went through a terrible spell. Not just directly at the time, but afterwards as well. Well, after recovering he wanted to go get vaccinated because he does transport and wanted to able to eat at restaurants, and because he felt he should be vaccinated in order to protect himself. His doctor actually advised against vaccination for a long time, which of course 100% affected his life because of all the braindead restrictions over not being able to eat at a restaurant. Eventually when he did get vaccinated based on what his doctor said, it floored him again for another 2 weeks.

His doctor told him this past year that if he had known what he knows now about natural immunity, he would have advised against vaccination for the full 6 months after infection. But he also was being pressured and told vaccinate at all costs.

Pretty ridiculous if you think back now on how the entire process was a giant coercion to force people to vaccinate, and even when it became evident that vaccination was not reducing spread, 20k fans could pack into an arena to watch a hockey game, but an unvaccinated person couldn't eat at a restaurant where there were gathering restrictions.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

1 in 66,000 and yet people apparently know handfuls of friends and relatives with vaccine injuries.

Must be cool knowing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people personally. Makes you feel likely that these popular folks grace us with their presence and still find the time to talk to strangers they don’t know.

These types of things get exaggerated so easily.

I had a sore arm for an afternoon, and maybe for the first one, I did feel a bit off for 18 hours. Do people think of that as vaccine injuries?

The odds against knowing multiple people with injuries (unless you are in a position specifically who deals with such people) is basically zero. Maybe there’s 1-2 people in the whole province who might know 2.

In similar exaggeration, I saw a Reddit thread about the birthday paradox (in a group of 23 people, it’s 50% likely that at least two people share a birthday). The number rapidly increases to near 100% by the time you get to 60 people. Someone claimed to be in an office of 116 people in which no one shared a birthday. Literally less than 1 in 800 MILLION odds.

“But it happened!”

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Azure

There was absolutely pressure to get vaccinated, and its shameful how the public, the media and health officials acted.

I have a friend who caught COVID right when vaccinations started to become available, and he went through a terrible spell. Not just directly at the time, but afterwards as well. Well, after recovering he wanted to go get vaccinated because he does transport and wanted to able to eat at restaurants, and because he felt he should be vaccinated in order to protect himself. His doctor actually advised against vaccination for a long time, which of course 100% affected his life because of all the braindead restrictions over not being able to eat at a restaurant. Eventually when he did get vaccinated based on what his doctor said, it floored him again for another 2 weeks.

His doctor told him this past year that if he had known what he knows now about natural immunity, he would have advised against vaccination for the full 6 months after infection. But he also was being pressured and told vaccinate at all costs.

Pretty ridiculous if you think back now on how the entire process was a giant coercion to force people to vaccinate, and even when it became evident that vaccination was not reducing spread, 20k fans could pack into an arena to watch a hockey game, but an unvaccinated person couldn't eat at a restaurant where there were gathering restrictions.

Also came to a point people would get $100 to get the jab. Crazy times last few years

[bagofpucks]

The most frustrating part is so many of these anecdotal stories make zero sense, but people still take them as fact.

We have a friend who was in a coma for two weeks due to what was believed to be delta. Vaccines were not readily available at this time and she was a front line worker. Early 30s, no pre-existing conditions. Her medical team advised her to hold off on getting her first dose of vaccine for months after and didn’t give her the green light until they did a check up on her. So yah, doctors were advising people not to get the vaccine right after infection, especially if they were very ill. And at this point, there were no covid restrictions, so Azure’s story above doesn’t add up at all.

Also, doctors were giving exemption letters for people who were not vaccinated, but had a positive covid test (I believe it could not be a rapid test) during the vaccine mandates. Someone we know ended up getting a letter so she could go to a concert in Vancouver (this was during the time when you couldn’t fly without proof of vaccination). I can’t remember if it was a 30, 60, or 90 day exemption but hilariously the person was mad because the doctor wouldn’t extend it.

The part that is so unusual is these conversations literally are not happening in other parts of Canada. We had friends in from Vancouver before Christmas and they were shocked that there was any “anti-vaxx backlash” going on. Everyone they knew got their first two shots and maybe a booster and then carried on with their lives. They own a small business and they had zero negative interactions with staff or customers regarding masks or the vaccine mandates. Same with our friends and family in ON.

[photon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

1 in 66,000 and yet people apparently know handfuls of friends and relatives with vaccine injuries.

Originally Posted by bagofpucks

The most frustrating part is so many of these anecdotal stories make zero sense, but people still take them as fact.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Our brains strongly want us to believe that because B follows A, A caused B.

But with large sample sizes like the entire population you're guaranteed to get negative health incidents (which happen all the time) shortly after receiving a vaccine that are unrelated.

Add in the fact that many people that fall into this category are going to talk and find each other and be vocal it's not hard to see why some arrive at conclusions that aren't supported by the data.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by photon

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Our brains strongly want us to believe that because B follows A, A caused B.

But with large sample sizes like the entire population you're guaranteed to get negative health incidents (which happen all the time) shortly after receiving a vaccine that are unrelated.

Add in the fact that many people that fall into this category are going to talk and find each other and be vocal it's not hard to see why some arrive at conclusions that aren't supported by the data.

Yeah, about 1 in 225 people in one of the Pfizer trials had a severe adverse reaction in the first couple of months after being vaccinated. I'm sure if people wanted to, they could try to find all kinds of ways to argue a link between those reactions and being vaccinated. And why not? They got vaccinated and within a matter of weeks they had a newly diagnosed severe condition (cardiovascular issues, cancer, immune system disorders, etc.). It must be related to getting vaccinated. Except for the fact that that was the severe adverse reaction rate in the placebo arm.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by bagofpucks

The most frustrating part is so many of these anecdotal stories make zero sense, but people still take them as fact.

We have a friend who was in a coma for two weeks due to what was believed to be delta. Vaccines were not readily available at this time and she was a front line worker. Early 30s, no pre-existing conditions. Her medical team advised her to hold off on getting her first dose of vaccine for months after and didn’t give her the green light until they did a check up on her. So yah, doctors were advising people not to get the vaccine right after infection, especially if they were very ill. And at this point, there were no covid restrictions, so Azure’s story above doesn’t add up at all.

Also, doctors were giving exemption letters for people who were not vaccinated, but had a positive covid test (I believe it could not be a rapid test) during the vaccine mandates. Someone we know ended up getting a letter so she could go to a concert in Vancouver (this was during the time when you couldn’t fly without proof of vaccination). I can’t remember if it was a 30, 60, or 90 day exemption but hilariously the person was mad because the doctor wouldn’t extend it.

The part that is so unusual is these conversations literally are not happening in other parts of Canada. We had friends in from Vancouver before Christmas and they were shocked that there was any “anti-vaxx backlash” going on. Everyone they knew got their first two shots and maybe a booster and then carried on with their lives. They own a small business and they had zero negative interactions with staff or customers regarding masks or the vaccine mandates. Same with our friends and family in ON.

I like how you start off saying it’s frustrating that people take annecdotal stories as fact and conclude with an anecdotal story presented as fact. If you look at vaccination rates as a proxy for anti-vax sentiment it was widely spread. If you look at the trucker convoy other provinces were well represented. If you look a PPC voting as a proxy again you see it being widespread.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by photon

Add in the fact that many people that fall into this category are going to talk and find each other and be vocal it's not hard to see why some arrive at conclusions that aren't supported by the data.

Agree with everything else added to the comment, but this especially. It’s fairly unsurprising that the same people who thought they were above the mainstream, didn’t trust the government, didn’t trust the vaccine, etc etc are now inflating vaccine injury numbers, saying COVID was overblown, claiming the government lied to us, etc etc.

Even looking at these threads lately, the people most active in it are primarily the people described above, all agreeing with each other and sharing anecdotes made virtually impossible by factual information and the real statistics we know about COVID and the vaccines, and as good as it is for guys like opendoor to provide corrections (how he’s still going I have no idea) you can tell it really isn’t about facts for some people, it’s about maintaining the belief that they were right and the world (and the government specifically) did them wrong.

It’s just strange seeming them tell stories where you can tell exactly what’s made up about it. You see the general truth of the story (friend got ______ condition) and then you see their reasoning fall apart as they look to use their friends and family as tools to justify their beliefs, or seek to blame others for what has happened to them personally. Life isn’t so easy.

[bagofpucks]

Yes, I think GGG illustrated my point perfectly. All the stats have been presented here and yet we still have people providing exaggerated anecdotal statements that the stats are wrong. I provided an exaggerated anecdotal statement, please provide some stats to show me why I’m wrong. I’d even argue the two proxies discussed probably strengthen my point (I believe Alberta had some of the lowest vaccination rates and probably the highest love for PP?). And to add two more proxy points, which province had the longest border closure due to our convoy friends? And my favorite, which province’s premier made the statement that people who chose not to vaxx were the “most discriminated against group that I’ve witnessed in my lifetime”?

[shotinthebacklund]

I am disgusted by some of the comments since my posts, and frankly I expected nothing less. I figured these comments would happen quickly and why until very recently have kept that discussion off this forum.


I was foolish to believe several posters within this community would be willing understand there are real world complications to these vaccine and approach them with a open mind. Instead, what appears to be blind zealotry to a group of companies.

Please, make light of what has happened within my family, going so far as to claim falsehood. Disgusting.

Dont bother replying.

[ikaris]

Really good article/discussion regarding natural immunity and the poor public health decision making that was observed in Canada and the US:

https://www.nprillinois.org/2023-03-...tural-immunity

Basically, we ignored hundreds of years of proof that natural immunity would be effective, and just said because we didn't have current studies that comprehensively proved this in 2021, that we better just vaccinate everyone anyways. Especially when COVID tests were readily available in the latter part of 2021, it doesn't make sense that proof of positive test was not recognized for "vaccine passports" in Canada and the US.

Scientists were arguing in late 2021 that it ethically didn't make sense that we weren't recognizing natural immunity:

https://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/48/6/371.full.pdf

Ironically, we are now approving bivalent vaccines with very limited VE information and no long-term health implications (Eg. no studies about this).

It's funny how some people are saying that I'm trying to change the narrative except I have been completely consistent from when I was posting about this during the pandemic. That is no point to get any boosters when you've already been infected as they add no value. I am just identifying why there is so much distrust of public health officials as clearly, they're not following "the science." Especially here in Canada and the US. Might have something to do spending all that money on something that's effectively useless for most (maximize the shots!).